Post-season ban

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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Titans96 » Tue May 14, 2019 9:49 pm

"not due to an institution-wide problem in the classroom"

I don't feel you are correct ptctitan with your assessment. With three teams in our program (Men's Basketball, Women's Softball, Men's Lacrosse) being in the bottom 10% of all D1 Programs, we have an "institution-wide problem" at UDM. If this was just a Men's Basketball issue, you may be correct. We have an Athletic Director who is a liability and needs to be terminated immediately. He has taken this excellent university into the bottom levels of D1, and his top priority was to develop outstanding student-athletes. He failed the University, the Alumni and the Board of Directors. He made a promise to everyone, and he has failed miserably in keeping that promise. Why do you keep trying to explain this massive failure away? Who are you trying to protect?
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby NC Titan » Tue May 14, 2019 11:54 pm

Titans96 wrote:"not due to an institution-wide problem in the classroom"

I don't feel you are correct ptctitan with your assessment. With three teams in our program (Men's Basketball, Women's Softball, Men's Lacrosse) being in the bottom 10% of all D1 Programs, we have an "institution-wide problem" at UDM. If this was just a Men's Basketball issue, you may be correct. We have an Athletic Director who is a liability and needs to be terminated immediately. He has taken this excellent university into the bottom levels of D1, and his top priority was to develop outstanding student-athletes. He failed the University, the Alumni and the Board of Directors. He made a promise to everyone, and he has failed miserably in keeping that promise. Why do you keep trying to explain this massive failure away? Who are you trying to protect?


T96, you aren't looking at the right statistic. APR is a measure of retention not of academic success of student athletes; GPA is a more valid measure. UDM consistently places teams in the top of the HL for academic achievement. You fault the softball team yet UDM was the only squad with four players on the HL All-Academic team. Senior catcher Jordan Manno has a 3.96 in biochem and twice made the HL all-academic team; senior Ashley Mauser has a 3.99 in nursing.

Men's Lacrosse player Matthew Vangalen has a 3.96 in Business. Men's soccer is among the top teams in the country when you measure by GPA. Runner Ben Kendell has a 3.9 in engineering and is a five-time Horizon League Scholar Athlete of the Season.

The athletes at UDM year after year represent the school well in the classroom. You totally miss the mark in characterizing their performances as a "massive failure" and your words are a horrible insult to the students who represent our school on the fields.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby upbasketballfan » Wed May 15, 2019 12:49 am

Titans96 wrote:"not due to an institution-wide problem in the classroom"

I don't feel you are correct ptctitan with your assessment. With three teams in our program (Men's Basketball, Women's Softball, Men's Lacrosse) being in the bottom 10% of all D1 Programs, we have an "institution-wide problem" at UDM. If this was just a Men's Basketball issue, you may be correct. We have an Athletic Director who is a liability and needs to be terminated immediately. He has taken this excellent university into the bottom levels of D1, and his top priority was to develop outstanding student-athletes. He failed the University, the Alumni and the Board of Directors. He made a promise to everyone, and he has failed miserably in keeping that promise. Why do you keep trying to explain this massive failure away? Who are you trying to protect?

Some of you so called fans need to go to a few games. Every one but 2 players on the lacrosse team were on the honor roll and the entire softball team. Must have had a severe turn around this last semester or someone doesn’t know what they are talking about. Something negative comes up and we are all over it but something positive never gets mentioned.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby ptctitan » Wed May 15, 2019 6:52 am

Titan96 - in addition to the excellent reasons in the last two replies above, your argument is false because, as of 2017-18, the 4-year average APR for all sports except men's BB is 980. And with the bad men's BB APR, it is 977. As an athletic program, that puts us within 1% of the average D-1 program-wide APR even with the bad men's BB number.

Did you know that in 2010-11, under Keri Gaither as AD, our athletic program's all-sports' APR was 972? That men's lacrosse had a 4-year APR of 898 but that the penalties were waived because a roster-size adjustment caused the low APR. And that in 2011-12, the men's lacrosse 4-year APR was still under 930. Did you know that?

There is no "massive failure." My agenda is to support and protect my university from false or misleading claims made by posters who claim to be supporters of the university but who twist the facts to serve their own agenda.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Titans96 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:15 am

Please do not attempt to misrepresent my words, and take off your rose colored glasses.

My message is clear, yet you are still attempting to gloss over the fact that Vowels is a massive failure as an Athletic Director. It is a fact that the Men's Basketball, Women's Softball and Men's Lacrosse are in the bottom 10% of all D1 in APR. Plus, the Men's Basketball is banned from Tournament play (even though we hopefully can get the ban reversed). You can't deny that fact, and it is a 4 year average (who was the AD during that 4 year average). How can that not be a massive failure on the part of our Athletic Director?

I know that many of the student-athletes are outstanding students and represent the University and themselves to the highest levels, and I am very proud of their accomplishments. The problem is, they are doing that even though our terrible Athletic Director is not supporting them, and many on this Board continue to try and justify that Vowels is doing a good job and representing the University well. Plus many of you on this board are twisting the facts to blame Alumni (who do attend numerous athletic and academic events at the University) for problems that are the result of poor leadership.

This is a massive failure on the part of Vowels and the University Leadership, so please stop trying to gloss it over with other issues. I am not twisting any facts or providing misleading claims. Rather it is many of you who twist the facts and are harming "our" University (not "my") by blindly supporting the poorly performing leadership.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby ptctitan » Wed May 15, 2019 9:47 am

Titan96 - your logic is ridiculous because you are a narrative in search of data.

APR does not measure the academic performance of the team. It measures two things: 1) eligibility; and, 2) roster retention.

As to eligibility, an athlete with a 2.0 GPA in basketweaving receives the same 1 point as an athlete with a 3.96 GPA in biochemistry.

As to retention, if an academically eligible athlete with an engineering major, leaves school to take a job as a draftsman to help his family pay their bills, he causes the APR to be docked 1 point for non-retention. But if an academically eligible athlete leaves school to work in the NBA so he can buy his parents a new house, the APR is not docked 1 point for retention.

All I provided was a longer-term historical perspective for APR at our school.

Under Vowels, the APR for all sports in 2017-18 was 977. Under Gaither, in 2010-11, the APR for all sports was 972.

Under Gaither, in 2010-11, the 4-year average APR for Men's Lacrosse was 898. Under Vowels, in 2017-18, the 4-year average for men's lacrosse was 954. In 2012-13, the 4-year APR for men's lacrosse was 953. So what if it's in the lowest 10% of all schools that field lacrosse teams.

Same with softball. So what if it's in the lowest 10% of all schools that field softball teams. The team is eligible. The APR is well above the threshold. This is not a race to win the most APR points.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby ptctitan » Wed May 15, 2019 10:10 am

That leaves the APR problem with men's BB.

If you look at the bigger picture, the APR for this sport adjusted downward beginning in the year after Kinsman retired, which was Perry Watson's last full season as head coach. By 2009-10, our 4 year APR sagged to 936 from 990 in 2006-07. In 2010-11, it was 937. We have been bouncing off the bottom for 10 years.

What caused the 2017-18 APR to fall so far that it pushed the 4-year average under 930. Was it academic ineligibility or transfers? We had two players ineligible for the 2nd semester in 2017-18. We had 5 players leave. Two transferred to other schools. Three players did not transfer to another school for 2018-19. All 3 of those players requested and were given releases to transfer. Two of those three players have committed to play men's BB at LIU in 2019-20. If those two players had transferred into LIU for 2018-19, we would have received an APR high enough to remain post-season eligible and not subject to practice restrictions. But because those two players left the program without transferring, we were not restored their 2 APR points. If just one of those players had enrolled in school, even a JUCO, in 2018-19, our 4-year APR would not fallen under 930.

When I look at the issue, I don't see a massive problem. I see a very unique problem caused by the peculiar way that the APR is calculated. We could have had a very good team GPA in 2017-18, but the transfers put us under - not an institution-wide classroom performance problem.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:35 am

My opinion on Vowels has changed over time. At first I thought he was a good hire. Then he fired Ray which really pissed me off. I thought hiring BA was predictable and not necessarily a horrible decision (many “experts” in college hoops thought BA was a natural fit for us). I don’t buy the “Vowels made BA hire JJ” theory. Not saying it’s impossible, but I think it’s more likely BA felt obligated to keep JJ because they’re old teammates (and I presume friends at the time). I kind of blame Vowels for letting BA hire Chatman as coach. Maybe Chatman the elder is a nice guy, but based on what I read about him he had no business being a D1 coach other than having a talented son. We basically paid the Chatman family for Kam’s services and brought in a coach without the skills needed to help (plus it clearly added to the nepotism vibe with the players). I think Vowels should have said no to hiring Chatman, but hindsight is 20/20 of course. Firing BA was the right decision, but Vowels did it too late. But then he totally redeemed himself by hiring Davis. Without question, in my mind, the best possible hire we could have made. Then when things start looking positive we get the SI article about Davis wanting to leave. I get that nearly all college basketball coaches are opportunists looking for bigger pay and stage, but I have to admit that I’m still a little uneasy after that article. Davis leaving after a year or two would erase any gains he might make and then some. Which leads to what kind of buyout we have in his contract. I hope Vowels protected us but the fact is none of us will ever know (unless Davis is actually bought out and UDM or the press reports the amount). Finally, we now have the APR issue. Honestly, I expect Vowels to fix this given his background and experience. If he can’t navigate the NCAA and fix it I think it looks poorly on him.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby titanmike » Wed May 15, 2019 10:40 am

ptctitan wrote:That leaves the APR problem with men's BB.

If you look at the bigger picture, the APR for this sport adjusted downward beginning in the year after Kinsman retired, which was Perry Watson's last full season as head coach. By 2009-10, our 4 year APR sagged to 936 from 990 in 2006-07. In 2010-11, it was 937. We have been bouncing off the bottom for 10 years.

What caused the 2017-18 APR to fall so far that it pushed the 4-year average under 930. Was it academic ineligibility or transfers? We had two players ineligible for the 2nd semester in 2017-18. We had 5 players leave. Two transferred to other schools. Three players did not transfer to another school for 2018-19. All 3 of those players requested and were given releases to transfer. Two of those three players have committed to play men's BB at LIU in 2019-20. If those two players had transferred into LIU for 2018-19, we would have received an APR high enough to remain post-season eligible and not subject to practice restrictions. But because those two players left the program without transferring, we were not restored their 2 APR points. If just one of those players had enrolled in school, even a JUCO, in 2018-19, our 4-year APR would not fallen under 930.

When I look at the issue, I don't see a massive problem. I see a very unique problem caused by the peculiar way that the APR is calculated. We could have had a very good team GPA in 2017-18, but the transfers put us under - not an institution-wide classroom performance problem.


I guess Spire had some great young assistant coaches.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Titans96 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:59 am

Are the two lists below something we should be proud of being on? Are we really comparing our Athletic Director's performance to our prior Athletic Director? Why would we not compare our Athletic Director's performance to Athletic Directors at schools that excel, schools that are not part of the sad lists below? Instead, some on this Board like to "aim low" instead of "aim high". Instead of trying to justify and provide lame reasons why we are on this list, why do we not fire Vowels and bring in someone who will bring UDM to the highest levels in D1? Isn't that what we should want and should expect? There are too many people on this Board (and obviously the Board of Directors) who say "we are better off today than when Gaither was here". That is such an unacceptable reach and no one should find that to be close to acceptable. Being on the lists below is an embarrassment to the entire University, plain and simple. No excuses are acceptable. Vowels must go NOW!!!! I read on this Board how we are better than Wright State, Oakland, IUPUI, etc..., but we are not and these schools are not on these lists. Let's pull our heads out of the sand and demand change, demand excellence and demand an Athletic Department that leads instead of fails.

Postseason ineligibility
•Alabama A&M: baseball, men’s track and field.
•Arkansas-Pine Bluff: men’s golf.
•Charleston Southern: men’s golf.
•Detroit Mercy: men’s basketball.
•Grambling: men’s track and field.
•Savannah State*: baseball, football

Level One Penalties
•Alabama A&M: women’s track and field.
•Arkansas-Pine Bluff: men’s golf.
•California State University, Northridge: men’s basketball
•Charleston Southern: men’s golf.
•Coppin State: softball, women’s cross country, women’s track and field.
•Delaware State: football, men’s basketball.
•Detroit Mercy: men’s basketball.
•Nicholls State: women’s cross country.
•Savannah State*: women’s cross country, women’s track and field.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby ptctitan » Wed May 15, 2019 12:43 pm

Titan96 - You like to use the adjective "massive" a lot. You're the one claiming that Vowels is a massive failure by citing the APR. You claimed it is a massive (there's that word again) institutional failure.

Your argument is not supported by the evidence because the 2017-18 four-year average APR for all sports at UDM is 5 points higher than it was at one time under the previous full-time AD. That proves that overall Vowels has not made things worse. From an institutional perspective, we are slightly better than we were at the beginning of this decade.

Seven of the 19 programs had perfect 1000 APRs in 2017-18.

Now, you shift your argument and claim we should demand better APR scores. Why? All I care about is whether the programs are eligible for post-season play. If they are eligible, then the penalties don't come into play. Why do I feel that way? Because transfers are easier to get and student athletes can leave school for many reasons that have nothing to do with poor performance in the classroom.

For example, softball has a higher APR than Duke and it has won the HL and made the NCAA tournament. Track & Field plus cross-country has some very good athletes. One made the NCAAs. Both lacrosse teams made their conference tournaments. The women's lacrosse team has been regular season conference champs two years in a row since Vowels took over. Women's soccer made the HL conference tournament. Fencing does well almost every year. Golf performance on the course is down.

Women's BB has a great APR but very few wins over the past two seasons. Of course, softball proved that a program can turn around rapidly with the right recruits and experience. We'll see.

So, we're back to men's BB. You got what you wanted with the coaching and staff changes. But now you don't like the APR consequence of hiring a better coach - a consequence that you did not foresee, so maybe you shouldn't be appointed a real or an honorary AD any time soon. Five transfers out. Three who did not enroll in a new college last year. That caused the 826 APR for 2017-18.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby NC Titan » Wed May 15, 2019 6:23 pm

More than sixty Titan athletes graduated this spring. Among those were Cole Long, Dre Black (!?!), Gerald Blackshear -- but not Josh McFolley.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:34 pm

Josh didn’t graduate? Ugh. Maybe he graduated after the fall semester? But I’d think that would have made its way into a game press release at some point. And Dre Black graduated just now?

Is it possible Black dinged our APR from last year?
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby ptctitan » Wed May 15, 2019 7:47 pm

The press release says that Black, Blackshear, Gjysma, and Long are the men's BB players who "took part" in the graduation ceremony.

The same release for last year says that Black, Chatman, and Isaiah Jones "took part" in the 2018 ceremony.

Maybe Dre Black received a postgraduate degree. And maybe Josh received his degree but decided not to participate in the formal ceremony.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby uofdfan1983 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:21 pm

Our overall academic performance and academic standing as a University is so superior to ANY other Horizon League school that it isn't even close. The APR problems, as stated, result from program turnover and calculation quirks that have impacted our final APR number. We are not (thank God) anything like the OU Pioneers or Wrong State and if we ever fall that low, pull the plug on the entire University, please.

Since I personally know the softball players best, I will defend them til the end. Their average GPA is 3.51Let me repeat: their average GPA is 3.51. Half of them are in the medical programs (physicians assistant, nursing, etc.). No idea why their APR is whatever you say it is. But they are the best damn student-athletes that any school would want in their Program. We are lucky and should feel proud they represent our alma mater.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby NC Titan » Thu May 16, 2019 9:03 am

Tangential and not relevant but still interesting, Wayne State is the lowest ranking public university in the country for graduating students in six years, about 25 to 30 percent.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Titans96 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:21 am

Well here is the running 4 year APR average per school and sport in the Horizon League. As you can see, our Titans are sadly just ahead of Youngstown State in 9th place (almost the worst performing school in the entire league).

So this is just an aberration? I don't think so. This is the result of a poorly managed Athletic Department. Vowels must go. This is embarrassing. We are in the bottom two of the Horizon League!!!! Let that sink in, and stop trying to fool yourselves into thinking that this is just a freak occurrence.

(the spreadsheet doesn't show up clearly with this format)

Sport UDM OU WSU NKY UIC UW-M YSU CSU IUPUI UW-GB
Men's Baseball N/A 985 998 1000 982 987 988 N/A N/A N/A
Men's Basketball 920 959 974 960 962 1000 947 966 980 980
Men's Cross Country 988 984 989 1000 972 1000 970 N/A 996 976
Men's Fencing 1000 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Men's Football N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 945 N/A N/A N/A
Men's Golf 973 971 986 987 N/A N/A 979 993 1000 992
Men's Lacrosse 954 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 978 N/A N/A
Men's Skiing N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 984
Men's Soccer 991 967 944 965 972 965 N/A 970 1000 982
Men's Swimming & Diving N/A 989 N/A N/A 978 969 N/A 979 981 979
Men's Tennis 974 N/A 913 982 991 N/A 938 967 981 1000
Men's Track 965 967 N/A 995 980 996 961 N/A 993 N/A
Men's Wrestling N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 948 N/A N/A
Women's Basketball 979 973 948 995 991 987 990 1000 990 995
Women's Bowling N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 957 N/A N/A N/A
Women's Cross Country 988 1000 1000 1000 1000 993 985 1000 991 1000
Women's Fencing 1000 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 950 N/A N/A
Women's Golf 979 1000 N/A 987 982 N/A 984 1000 983 982
Women's Lacrosse 981 N/A N/A 973 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Women's Skiing N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 1000
Women's Softball 958 951 993 995 997 993 993 971 996 975
Women's Soccer 992 987 988 1000 990 N/A 961 989 1000 997
Women's Swimming & Diving N/A 997 N/A N/A 997 1000 991 989 997 986
Women's Tennis 975 992 1000 995 1000 992 981 974 1000 974
Women's Track 984 977 981 989 1000 989 964 963 991 N/A
Women's Volleyball N/A 1000 1000 N/A 985 986 965 984 1000 989
Average APR 976.5 981.2 978.0 988.2 986.3 989.0 970.5 977.7 992.4 986.9
School Rank 9 6 7 3 5 2 10 8 1 4
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby Tacitus651 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:02 am

I think those numbers, if anything, show a very low standard deviation though. Maybe we are a bottom two of the HL for graduating and retaining student athletes, but I’ll point out two things:

(1) we are still basically the same as nearly as most collegiate programs and teams. Outside of football and men’s basketball, most teams at most schools are graduating the majority of students that enroll. Sure, sometimes students transfer or take an extra semester to graduate, but for the most part schools do a good job. It’s also worth noting that college students in general have poor graduation rates outside of the top 100 schools nationally. For example, IUPUI has a student gradation rate of 54.2% within six years in enrolling. It’s worth asking if we should expect more from student athletes than other students.

(2) Being next to YSU in APR isn’t by itself embarrassing. All APR does is capture retention and graduation. Some degrees are harder to get. Some schools have high academic standards and offer no “coast” degrees. One of my best friends attended Southern Illinois back in the early 2000s when they were good at MBB. It was common knowledge on campus that most of the guys on the MBB team did not attend classes often or do any school work. They were majoring in Communications or Sport Administration and they just passed along getting Cs in b*//$#+% classes by submitting 8th grade writing assignments from time to time. But under the APR formula, those students count the same as a kid at Northwestern majoring in neurobiology. So I really don’t care too much about the APR so long as we are eligible. In fact, if we had all 1000s across the board I’d be worried we were sacrificing academic integrity to pass people along.
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby NC Titan » Thu May 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Does anyone know if Cole Long has landed anywhere?
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Re: Post-season ban

Postby NC Titan » Thu May 16, 2019 6:44 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:It’s also worth noting that college students in general have poor graduation rates outside of the top 100 schools nationally. For example, IUPUI has a student gradation rate of 54.2% within six years in enrolling. It’s worth asking if we should expect more from student athletes than other students.


UDM's 2018 graduation rate was 55% of students after four years. The graduation rate for the entering class of 2012 (in other words, how many graduate within six years) was 65%. Both those numbers continued an upward trend.
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