Expanding the athletic program

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Expanding the athletic program

Postby Hoopster_Now_In_DC » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:44 am

It would be nice for the school to add women's volleyball. Calihan would be a great venue and the sport is popular.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby UDDRUMMER » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:16 am

That would be nice!

I'd like to see baseball return to the 6 and noise. There have been so many great Titan ball players. I bet the team travel costs are expensive, since most of the early season games are played in warmer climates.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Big Chuck » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:18 am

Let's concentrate on getting the sports we participate in the tools they need to succeed. Where would a volleyball team practice? How many teams can practice in Calihan at the same time? Where would the baseball team play? Maybe we can add another sport that cannot host a tournament if they finish first because we are the only team in the league with no outdoor lighted facilities.

Let's do things right or don't do them at all.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby uofdmik2008 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:30 am

I agree one step at a time here guys, we need basketball to be successful, that drives our revenue for the athletic department. We also have to tackle the infrastructure issues like the lights at the softball stadium and titan field, the number of lanes and the bleachers at Titan field. Also, I think the lighting in Calihan Hall should be a priority at some point so we can use lighting to enhance events at Calihan Hall. Practice Facilities for our sports these are just a few to get started. The AD Vowels is working on them, the scoreboard is a great example of that.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby titanmac » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:02 am

jimmy john's field. what i'd really like tho is for lighting to go up and football return. that's a winner.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:05 am

When the University built the fitness center a few years ago, they set aside adjacent land for a possible natatorium someday. Don't think adding NCAA swimming will happen anytime soon, but I guess that was or perhaps still is the long term vision.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:39 am

I doubt adding any sport makes sense at this point. Any sport added would most likely be a significant net revenue loss. Even if you didn't award scholarships, the coaches salaries, equipment, and travel add up fast. I'm guessing that no women's volleyball program in the country is revenue positive.

I'm not sure if Mac is joking, but I can guarantee that adding football would bankrupt Detroit Mercy. Just this morning I read two news stories. SLU (even with their 1B endowment) is laying off over 100 staff due to an enrollment slump. Also, Barry University and St. Thomas University (FL) are exploring a merger that seems like a done deal. Being a predominantly tuition revenue school is always precarious. Detroit Mercy should do stuff like the things Mik suggested.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby TitanTarHeel » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:55 am

Tacitus651 wrote: Any sport added would most likely be a significant net revenue loss. Even if you didn't award scholarships, the coaches salaries, equipment, and travel add up fast.


Rough math says it wouldn't be 'significant net revenue loss' -- 20 new students paying $20K/yr to attend UDM (there's $400K of new annual revenue). A head coach (say $60K/yr) and an asst or 2 (another $60K/yr) and you've got a bunch left over for equipment and bus rides. This was part of the logic in starting the lacrosse program last decade. And this was also why the university at least screened some numbers and assumptions on football in recent years (60 kids x $20K tuition = $1.2M new revs). Then, put the foot program in a lower level so they aren't trying to compete with D1 (which we never could).

Having said all that...I'm in agreement that we should probably just improve and get competitive with the teams we field now. We aren't exactly hanging banners every year for the host of HL titles we are winning. In fact, we are probably in line to have one of the worst on the field performances (Again) in all the Horizon League across all sports. And yes the puny D2/Summit League Pioneers of OU will again be at the top.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby titanmac » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:03 am

the plan for d2 football was approved a few years ago. the influx of young student athletes would more than offset the cost of the program. other obstacles arose that put it on a back burner. time to dust it off and reconsider. i'm sure it would draw at least as well as lacrosse if not better. patriot league was the bandied about plan. of course i'm serious!
Last edited by titanmac on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:11 am

Ok, so you want to create a D1 volleyball team with no scholarships so they can get beat senseless every game? Only 60K for the HC? Gee, what about fringe? Does the HC not get health insurance, 403b contributions, life insurance, etc? Same goes for the assistant coaches. Office space, computers, an admin assistant, I could go on and on. Traveling to Green Bay, traveling to NKU. Per diems for coaches, hotels, vans, planes, feeding 20 students when on the road. It adds up faster than you think.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby titanmike » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:23 pm

Big Chuck wrote:Let's concentrate on getting the sports we participate in the tools they need to succeed. Where would a volleyball team practice? How many teams can practice in Calihan at the same time? Where would the baseball team play? Maybe we can add another sport that cannot host a tournament if they finish first because we are the only team in the league with no outdoor lighted facilities.

Let's do things right or don't do them at all.


Chuck you and I agree most of the time, but we are talking about women's volleyball and every effort should be made to increase the # of women in shorts on campus. Just sayin.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby TitanTarHeel » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:12 pm

The numbers and studies UDM did back when Lax was started had floated around, as was the related swimming and football analyses (several on this board have seen them). Sports are starting at different universities under this same net revenue neutral/positive logic.

I'll go ahead and 'show my work' on how it stacks up to not be a "significant net revenue loss"

Hypothetical Detmer Titans Women's Volleyball Team:

Revenues:
16 players on the team (same as OU 2017 team) less 8 players on full scholarship (the avg school has 11 players on full scholarship) thus 8 players paying tuition x $37,000 (tuition only per UDM website) = $296,000 New Incoming Revenues to UDM

This is an olympic sport (and not a money sport like hoops/foot) thus any other revenues are probably immaterial, at least early on, such as sponsorships, equipment deals, etc.

Expenses:
1 Head Coach $70,000 (Public disclosures show OU paid their head coach $66K) + 1 Asst Coach $40,000 (Public disclosures show OU paid their asst $36K) = Costs = $110K of Salary Cost

Fringe, Admin, Health Care, Employ Taxes, 401k, etc = another $110K (a conservative rule of thumb in corporate budgeting world is to presume all of this costs as much as the base salary)

Right now we have a team and coaches and thats it, and we have a Net Revenue of Positive $76,000

Each year let's get equipment and supplies for $15K (I don't have a better guess, so this feels conservative at worst). Now our Net Rev is $61K.

This season OU women's team has/will go on 9 different road trips. We now have $6,778 PER ROAD trip to spend in order to be break even. That doesn't leave you with a ton of wiggle room but many of bus trips we'd do to the midwest (IL, IN, OH, PA).

To make budget we could give 7 instead of 8 scholarships. Or perhaps some of the 8 paying students live on campus so now we have room & board revenue. Or we take 1 less road trip. There are levers to pull here with the budget to make it net neutral. Again, this general approach to calc'ing the net financial impact has been used by the Pres, AD and Board and its how we now have a lacrosse team.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:37 pm

TitanTarHeel wrote:The numbers and studies UDM did back when Lax was started had floated around, as was the related swimming and football analyses (several on this board have seen them). Sports are starting at different universities under this same net revenue neutral/positive logic.

I'll go ahead and 'show my work' on how it stacks up to not be a "significant net revenue loss"

Hypothetical Detmer Titans Women's Volleyball Team:

Revenues:
16 players on the team (same as OU 2017 team) less 8 players on full scholarship (the avg school has 11 players on full scholarship) thus 8 players paying tuition x $37,000 (tuition only per UDM website) = $296,000 New Incoming Revenues to UDM

This is an olympic sport (and not a money sport like hoops/foot) thus any other revenues are probably immaterial, at least early on, such as sponsorships, equipment deals, etc.

Expenses:
1 Head Coach $70,000 (Public disclosures show OU paid their head coach $66K) + 1 Asst Coach $40,000 (Public disclosures show OU paid their asst $36K) = Costs = $110K of Salary Cost

Fringe, Admin, Health Care, Employ Taxes, 401k, etc = another $110K (a conservative rule of thumb in corporate budgeting world is to presume all of this costs as much as the base salary)

Right now we have a team and coaches and thats it, and we have a Net Revenue of Positive $76,000

Each year let's get equipment and supplies for $15K (I don't have a better guess, so this feels conservative at worst). Now our Net Rev is $61K.

This season OU women's team has/will go on 9 different road trips. We now have $6,778 PER ROAD trip to spend in order to be break even. That doesn't leave you with a ton of wiggle room but many of bus trips we'd do to the midwest (IL, IN, OH, PA).

To make budget we could give 7 instead of 8 scholarships. Or perhaps some of the 8 paying students live on campus so now we have room & board revenue. Or we take 1 less road trip. There are levers to pull here with the budget to make it net neutral. Again, this general approach to calc'ing the net financial impact has been used by the Pres, AD and Board and its how we now have a lacrosse team.

Your analysis assumes no additional academic or administrative costs to the University to educate student athletes. At some point, adding multiples of students to programs requires additional faculty, more tutors, etc., so that needs to be factored in. Also, I'm guessing a lot of the non scholarship athletes will get significant financial aid from University resources; very few Detroit Mercy students pay the full sticker price.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:13 pm

Was just going to make those points, Bob. I don't think Mik is teaching b-school classes for free. But, yes, very few students pay sticker price. Some of those discount dollars are from endowed and annual scholarships, but at most schools the price is often offset by dollars in the annual budget (which, again, comes primarily from tuition dollars). The math really doesn't add up if you have any experience with university budgets. For you Simpsons fans, this is the same logic that Homer used with his grease scheme. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYlZd__XFro

I used to work at a D2 school that had similar budget numbers for a proposed football team. The AD was all for the team, and he was convincing university leadership one by one until a few Econ professors drafted a simple document pointing out all the things the budget missed. I'm not saying volleyball at UDM is just as bad. But the margins are way too thin for comfort IMO.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby NC Titan » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:47 pm

Anyone who wants another sport should step forward -- with his checkbook wide open.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby Big Chuck » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:55 pm

titanmike wrote:
Big Chuck wrote:Let's concentrate on getting the sports we participate in the tools they need to succeed. Where would a volleyball team practice? How many teams can practice in Calihan at the same time? Where would the baseball team play? Maybe we can add another sport that cannot host a tournament if they finish first because we are the only team in the league with no outdoor lighted facilities.

Let's do things right or don't do them at all.


Chuck you and I agree most of the time, but we are talking about women's volleyball and every effort should be made to increase the # of women in shorts on campus. Just sayin.


Mike, based on your priorities, you might consider beach volleyball. Just saying...
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby uofdmik2008 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:32 pm

Adding these new sports is like worrying about the paint on a house when the foundation is leaking. Valpo's Pioneer Football League costs them 1mil and that is in a Div1 FCS non-scholarship league (0 scholarships for the school), they struggle with travel costs, which are thru the roof. Football is out of the question until we find ways to increase revenue and/or reduce costs drastically on our current sports. The cost of travel, lack of space for student athletes to train. If we add teams where do you suppose they will practice Calihan? Every team of our 19 sports practices in Calihan, Fitness Center is meant for all students, the intention of the facility is not to be completely taken over by our Div 1 sports, so we are limited to what we can do there too. Once again we have way too many infrastructure things we have to take care of first which are not that sexy. We cannot host Track and Field events college or high school, reduces revenue, all because we have 6 lanes instead of the necessary 8. We have no lights for soccer or softball, so god forbid we finish number 1 in our league and Oakand #2, they would host the tournament, now that would be a huge embarrassment, not to mention losing on potential revenue from hosting tournaments and games for high schools. Our dorms are completely full, we have no room to house additional on campus students, we need to expand dorms, which is being worked on by the Pres. Anyone else want more arguments why we should not add any more sports right now. AD and Pres have a tough job but are working on resolving all of these to help our current athletic programs be successful. Lets help them with these, when we succeed here we can talk about adding football, baseball, volleyball and heck throw in equestrian sports, I don't care but lets take one step at a time. The scoreboard was one, the other the student-athlete academic center is another, other projects are in the works like the Titan Performance Center to be located inside of Calihan Hall! Things like these will help with recruiting more student-athletes across all sports that we currently have!
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby titanmac » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:36 am

i'm sure we could find a place to play that wasn't oakland. besides the way our softball program is going there's not much chance for that. i do like our coach now tho.
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby titanmike » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:34 am

Big Chuck wrote:
titanmike wrote:
Big Chuck wrote:Let's concentrate on getting the sports we participate in the tools they need to succeed. Where would a volleyball team practice? How many teams can practice in Calihan at the same time? Where would the baseball team play? Maybe we can add another sport that cannot host a tournament if they finish first because we are the only team in the league with no outdoor lighted facilities.

Let's do things right or don't do them at all.


Chuck you and I agree most of the time, but we are talking about women's volleyball and every effort should be made to increase the # of women in shorts on campus. Just sayin.


Mike, based on your priorities, you might consider beach volleyball. Just saying...


Duh Chuck, but then we would have to bring in sand, wait, maybe we can play at Belle Isle?
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Re: Expanding the athletic program

Postby theroundsquare » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:42 am

Maybe the beach volleyball team can play at the forthcoming Atwater Beach. I'll spring for the uniforms. With the limited amount of fabric, it can't cost that much.
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