Conference Realignment

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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby dennycrane » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:56 am

I agree with NCT on this, pct. These "schools" such as Grand Canyon, Capella, University of Phoenix, Southern New Hampshire and others are taking advantage of Uncle Sam issuing student loans for their very existence. Then, as the years go by and significant numbers of these loans are not paid back, who is left holding the bag? Of course, it's the taxpayer. This represents bad public policy and it should not be encouraged.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby uofdmik2008 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:56 am

NC Titan wrote:
ptctitan wrote:Why should we care that Grand Canyon is a for-profit institution?


Because a college should be focused on the student (and the Athletic Department on the student-athlete) not on turning a profit. It should be an educational institution, not a company focused on getting lots of government issued student loans.

Yes, there are exceptions and Grand Canyon might be one, but if they are then they're in the minority.


There are plenty of non-profit higher education schools that do a poor job of focusing on the student, http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/education/2015/04/26/college-graduation-rates-lag-michigan/26429967/ Graduation rate at a public university such as Wayne State is 32%, that is a school that takes tax payer money and accepts the same student loans from Uncle Sam. I don't care if they are for profit or non-profit, if they do a good job of educating individuals and help them achieve professional success than bring it on. I agree that there are for profit schools that should not be allowed to have any federal student loans, but the same can be said of some non-profit universities. As far as an Institution of Higher Learning GCU are below average, even below the bottom of the barrel of the Horizon Schools, reluctantly I have to agree with Taci that they do not fit our conference from an academic point of view and that says a lot since we do not have many overachievers in the HL! With that being said below is something to think about as far as Grand Canyon goes!

Among the Worst Graduation Rates. Only 22.4% of first-time/full-time students graduate from Grand Canyon University on time (two or four years depending on the degree) and only 33.6% graduate at all, ranking this school below average in both categories when compared nationally. .


http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/grand-canyon-university/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/

Only one school has graduation rates that sometimes are as bad as Grand Canyon in our league and that is Youngstown State, IUPUI graduation rate is 40%, Robert Morris that was looked as another possibility is 58% and ours is 63%, UIC is 60%, with most of our schools between 40%-63% with us at the top of the league. I would rather us get a school that looks more like the top of the league academically than one that would be the worst.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby NC Titan » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:52 pm

89% of our #DetroitMercy graduates are either employed or in graduate school within the first six months post graduation!


Few, if any, for-profit colleges could say this. That's the difference.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby uofdmik2008 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:46 pm

NC Titan wrote:
89% of our #DetroitMercy graduates are either employed or in graduate school within the first six months post graduation!


Few, if any, for-profit colleges could say this. That's the difference.


Sure and there are plenty of non-profit schools that can't say that, that take tax payer money and have graduation rates in the teens and employment rates at half of ours. The emphasis should be on the type of institution and results, whether its non-profit or profit does not matter. I would not want a school in our conference whether profit or non-profit that has the results for its students that Grand Canyon has. If at some point there is a for profit institution that is a better fit in our conference academically than it would make sense to pursue them, otherwise GCU is just an attempt at a cash grab from a school that is taking advantage of the tax payers by providing a poor education to their students just like some non-profit schools do that I would not want in our conference. If you look at Youngstown State you might arrive at the conclusion that a school like that in many ways is not any better than GCU for the results for their students.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby NC Titan » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:11 pm

I would daresay the proportion of YSUs in the not-for-profit ranks is lower than the number of bad actors in the for-profit ranks.

A for-profit law school shut down here in my city this year after a horrible experience. The bar passage rate, even when gamed by the school, was below abysmal. The debt for these desperate prospective lawyers is crushing. The faculty of the school even had to set up food pantries for the students. Ugly ugly ugly. And not solitary: This same corporation had experienced similar episodes in other cities. Absolutely predatory.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby ptctitan » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:15 pm

Thanks for the discussion.

I simply asked a question. Why does a school's status as profit or non-profit matter in deciding whether or not they should join the HL or any other conference?

The response seemed to consist of typical marketing messages used by non-profits when they are trying to recruit students who are considering a for-profit college.

For the sake of accuracy here:

According to the US Dept of Education, GCU's graduation rate has climbed to 29%. Not good, but not as bad as portrayed above.

https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/school/?104717-Grand-Canyon-University

The same source discloses that GCU's students incur below average student debt when they graduate and that they generally find employment with average compensation of $44K which is well above the national average.

So, there are pluses and minuses. Also, GCU's athletic program would have to meet NCAA standards in order to maintain full compliance in Division I.

On another matter, SNHU is a non-profit university.

Marygrove is shutting down its non-profit undergrad programs. I guess it was overly non-profit. The for-profit law school failed to succeed. In the for-profit world, that enterprise should cease to exist.

Perhaps there are valid reasons not to add GCU to the HL. But I do not think the reason is the for-profit structure of the university. It may be simply that GCU is too early in its transition to a Division 1 school to merit such a bid.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby NC Titan » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:41 pm

ptctitan wrote:Marygrove is shutting down its non-profit undergrad programs. I guess it was overly non-profit.


"overly non-profit" -- I like that spin. :lol: Extra non-profit. Super-duper non-profit.

Nevertheless, I still look askance at a college that has to generate all that it costs to operate a university -- plus figure out a way to bring in another 10% for the investors. Of course, I also look askance at a school such as Harvard that generates enough $$$ from it's endowment to run the university for the year, still charges a premium to attend, and then aggressively goes after donors to build another building.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:41 pm

I'm so tired of people bashing schools like Harvard for their big endowments. Those schools endowments are comprised of thousands of contractual gift agreements that specifically provide for certain things (professorships, lecture series, very specific medical research). Their "general" endowment does not provide enough interest to support their 7,000 undergrads and the truth is hardly anyone at Harvard is paying their high sticker price anyway.

The day is coming, soon, when schools like Harvard and Stanford will have enough endowed undergrad scholarships to provide for their entire student bodies. You'll see them go "tuition free" within the next 10 years.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby kirky313 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:49 pm

I guess this is my young and stupid opinion.. If GCU helps our conference prestige in regards to basketball then let's do it. Academics aside unless you're overly concerned about guys who can't get into UDM torching us on the court the point is moot and kinda silly. We through some poor moves in the past and some bad luck never were put in a place to move to a better conference. Now say we go dancing 2-3 times in a 5-year span, win a game in the tournament. then we start to look attractive... Until then were just a homely girl with some smarts that won't put out quick.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby Commissioner » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:13 pm

Conferences are often more than mere athletic alignments, and it's good to associate with schools like yourself or like you want to be. That's one reason why the MAAC remains at least somewhat attractive to me, and why I wouldn't squawk at a move to the Patriot. So I understand the reluctance to add another school whose academics look a little too much like Youngstown State.

But that said, the Horizon needs basketball. GCU would immediately improve the conference as a basketball conference in every way--budget, attendance, on-court performance.

Guys, Lindy's ranks the Horizon 23rd in its pre-season rankings, 3 spots behind the Summit, barely ahead of the decrepit WAC. They put us behind the Southern and the Ohio Valley, the Patriot and the Big West. Realistically, there is no better conference remotely interested in inviting us to join. We need the Horizon to get better. GCU (and New Mexico State, if we could grab the pair) are about the only possibilities to do that through expansion.

But at this point, it may not be a question of whether we'll have GCU. We'll be lucky if GCU will have us.
Last edited by Commissioner on Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby JimmyChitwood » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:11 am

Commissioner wrote:Guys, Lindy's ranks the Horizon 23rd in its pre-season rankings, 3 spots behind the Summit, barely ahead of the decrepit WAC. They put us behind the Southern and the Ohio Valley, the Patriot and the Big West

YIKES! Not that long ago we were hovering around 10-14. Maybe if we do well this year the Summit will have us. :oops:
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby Commissioner » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:44 am

Putting it another way, the Union Hall is burning down, and people are complaining that we can't use the only firefighters in the area because they aren't union.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby Commissioner » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:49 am

kirky313 wrote:I guess this is my young and stupid opinion.. If GCU helps our conference prestige in regards to basketball then let's do it. Academics aside unless you're overly concerned about guys who can't get into UDM torching us on the court the point is moot and kinda silly. We through some poor moves in the past and some bad luck never were put in a place to move to a better conference. Now say we go dancing 2-3 times in a 5-year span, win a game in the tournament. then we start to look attractive... Until then were just a homely girl with some smarts that won't put out quick.


Maybe we could ply some the presidents and commissioner of some good lookin' conference with alcohol, and wait til near closing time? Just thinkin' out loud, here.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby ptctitan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:17 am

Commissioner wrote:Putting it another way, the Union Hall is burning down, and people are complaining that we can't use the only firefighters in the area because they aren't union.


Exactly. We are currently beggars. We cannot be choosers unless and until we win big and win consistently. After last year's transition, we have to make significant positive strides this season. We have a deeper and more balanced roster. However, the coaches must get these guys ready to play better and sooner than they played early last season. That starts with the Wayne St exhibition game. And the returning players should feel that they have lots and lots to prove. We should be able to improve our W-L record at least as well as UIC did last year. Play better. Win more games. No excuses. This is the only way out of the quicksand named the Horizon League.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby uofdmik2008 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:07 am

I don't think the HL is quicksand, if the teams are as bad as everyone says they are, its plausible to dominate the league and be a perennial team in the Dance, which helps build the program further and also helps the league. The issue is if there is a lot of parity amongst bad teams and then during the Tourney the good teams do not go to the dance and we have no HL teams having a shot at an upset. If the league is as bad as people seem to believe, I think there is an opportunity there to dominate it and build a program that way and if a good opportunity presents itself make the jump. Wichita State is a good example of dominating a lesser league or Gonzaga or Butler which went undefeated in HL one year. I don't see how bringing in better teams to whoop the crappy teams improves our lot, it boils down to our team has to win, probably easier to consistently win against crappy teams and get to the dance we will always be a 1 bid school. If we bring in teams to the conference it would be nice if they fit the conference academically as well as on the court. At this point for us only thing that matters is winning on a regular basis.
Last edited by uofdmik2008 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Conference Realignment

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:11 am

What a concept. Why make money when you can beg for it and hope someone donates.
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