Worst Titan Team Ever?

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Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby Commissioner » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:21 am

With last night's championship game, all the RPI machines can stop clicking. The Titans finish ranked #289 in RPI. That is our lowest ranking since RPI was introduced in 1980 (though, as a percentage of total teams in D-I, we were lower in 1987, 1988, and 2008).

Ken Pomeroy has used his system to retroactively rank teams each year since 1950. This year we ended up ranked #302, our lowest ranking ever.

Titan ranking history here: http://udtitanbasketball.freeforums.net ... 726/thread
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby MooseGuy1 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:49 am

Whew! Thank goodness we got rid of Ray McCallum. Can't imagine how bad it would've been with Ray at the helm.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:21 am

MooseGuy1 wrote:Whew! Thank goodness we got rid of Ray McCallum. Can't imagine how bad it would've been with Ray at the helm.


+1 Moose
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby uofdfan1983 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:42 am

If you strive for mediocrity, continue to think that Ray SR was the answer. If you're interested and willing to shoot for the stars, then try the bold approach. What Vowels did was brave, difficult and necessary. I am a boss and firing someone is very hard. But it was the right thing to do. I am astonished at how people sometimes just look at short-term results, when it is necessary to look beyond at what the total picture is/needs to become.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby ptctitan » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:04 am

If you strive for mediocrity, continue to think that Ray SR was the answer. If you're interested and willing to shoot for the stars, then try the bold approach. What Vowels did was brave, difficult and necessary. I am a boss and firing someone is very hard. But it was the right thing to do. I am astonished at how people sometimes just look at short-term results, when it is necessary to look beyond at what the total picture is/needs to become.


+100 points, Tom. You cannot achieve excellence without risking failure. But strategic thinking and calculated risk appear to be foreign concepts to some who want only instant gratification no matter how superficial and fleeting its reality.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby titanmac » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:09 pm

yeah. if ray was here we micghta won 12 maybe 13 games.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby Commissioner » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:42 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:If you strive for mediocrity, continue to think that Ray SR was the answer. If you're interested and willing to shoot for the stars, then try the bold approach. What Vowels did was brave, difficult and necessary. I am a boss and firing someone is very hard. But it was the right thing to do. I am astonished at how people sometimes just look at short-term results, when it is necessary to look beyond at what the total picture is/needs to become.

I agree.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby R.B.J1 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:20 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:If you strive for mediocrity, continue to think that Ray SR was the answer. If you're interested and willing to shoot for the stars, then try the bold approach. What Vowels did was brave, difficult and necessary. I am a boss and firing someone is very hard. But it was the right thing to do. I am astonished at how people sometimes just look at short-term results, when it is necessary to look beyond at what the total picture is/needs to become.


I agree, its not good to continue to tread water.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby R.B.J1 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:20 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:If you strive for mediocrity, continue to think that Ray SR was the answer. If you're interested and willing to shoot for the stars, then try the bold approach. What Vowels did was brave, difficult and necessary. I am a boss and firing someone is very hard. But it was the right thing to do. I am astonished at how people sometimes just look at short-term results, when it is necessary to look beyond at what the total picture is/needs to become.


I agree, its not good to continue to tread water. In my opinion the 1986-1987, and 2007-2008 titan teams are the worst I've ever seen.

1986-1987
Tullos did everything for the 1986-1987 team, and I think Brian Humes played that year on a gimp leg.

2007-2008
The 2007-2008 titans were initially led by Jon Goode, after Goode's season ended with a knee injury, Zach Everingham became the go-to guy.
Last edited by R.B.J1 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:32 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:Whew! Thank goodness we got rid of Ray McCallum. Can't imagine how bad it would've been with Ray at the helm.


"Human sacrifice. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!" - Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"

Actually, with the Titans increasing their win totals the last two years under Ray, I expect we would have been over .500 this year. How much over .500? Hard to tell, since we don't know what other recruits Ray might have brought in for the class of 2016. Probably wouldn't be sitting here on April 4 without any signings or verbal commits for the class of 2017, though.

Relatively speaking, firing a coach is easy. The hard part is making sure that the guy you hire is an upgrade over the guy he is replacing.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby R.B.J1 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:53 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:Whew! Thank goodness we got rid of Ray McCallum. Can't imagine how bad it would've been with Ray at the helm.


"Human sacrifice. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!" - Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"

Actually, with the Titans increasing their win totals the last two years under Ray, I expect we would have been over .500 this year. How much over .500? Hard to tell, since we don't know what other recruits Ray might have brought in for the class of 2016. Probably wouldn't be sitting here on April 4 without any signings or verbal commits for the class of 2017, though.

Relatively speaking, firing a coach is easy. The hard part is making sure that the guy you hire is an upgrade over the guy he is replacing.


Sam, you make a lot of sense, and I was warned/advised that if we let coach Mac go, we might get the results that we are getting. My question has always been, at what point do we continue to get beat by OU, and finish a game or two above or below .500. As myself, and others have stated I can only think of one game in which the titans "upset" a team, or won a game that they were not the favorite during the McCallum era, and that was the 2012 game against Valpo, and I think we had the better team that season. On the other hand, I can think of many games in which we were the favorite/better team and were defeated. I must say, I have no ideal what coach Alexander is doing in regards to recruiting, or style of play. It is safe to say that the honeymoon is over, he's gotta start showing some tangible results, right now he's giving us a steady dose of slick suits and smooth talking.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:11 pm

R.B.J1 wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:Whew! Thank goodness we got rid of Ray McCallum. Can't imagine how bad it would've been with Ray at the helm.


"Human sacrifice. Dogs and cats living together. Mass hysteria!" - Peter Venkman, "Ghostbusters"

Actually, with the Titans increasing their win totals the last two years under Ray, I expect we would have been over .500 this year. How much over .500? Hard to tell, since we don't know what other recruits Ray might have brought in for the class of 2016. Probably wouldn't be sitting here on April 4 without any signings or verbal commits for the class of 2017, though.

Relatively speaking, firing a coach is easy. The hard part is making sure that the guy you hire is an upgrade over the guy he is replacing.


Sam, you make a lot of sense, and I was warned/advised that if we let coach Mac go, we might get the results that we are getting. My question has always been, at what point do we continue to get beat by OU, and finish a game or two above or below .500. As myself, and others have stated I can only think of one game in which the titans "upset" a team, or won a game that they were not the favorite during the McCallum era, and that was the 2012 game against Valpo, and I think we had the better team that season. On the other hand, I can think of many games in which we were the favorite/better team and were defeated. I must say, I have no ideal what coach Alexander is doing in regards to recruiting, or style of play. It is safe to say that the honeymoon is over, he's gotta start showing some tangible results, right now he's giving us a steady dose of slick suits and smooth talking.


I'm not saying that firing Coach Ray was the wrong move. I wouldn't have done it, but maybe it will turn out okay. I was simply responding to Moose's post. To answer your post, I can't think of "many" games where the Titans were favored to win and lost. The knock I often heard on Coach Ray was that he won the games he was supposed to win, but never won games he was supposed to lose. I also remember the NCAA tournament year, the NIT year, and the years he took Ball State to the tourney, so I'm not inclined to think that the two years following the NIT season were for sure what the future was going to hold. Ray still had his recruiting chops. I saw those last two losing seasons as part of a rebuild more than the shape of things to come.

BA might end up being a good hire. People have concerns for good reason, I think, but he can allay some fears with a good haul in the late signing period. He is a smooth talker, and a lot of people wanted that in a new coach.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:42 am

My point, sarcastic though it was, was not that we should've stayed with Ray. It was actually twofold:

1. There's been this continuing notion that some of the problems in BA's first year is attributable to Ray "leaving the cupboard bare". That is pure nonsense. A coaching transition is bound to create growing pains but this season's failure went well beyond growing pains. One need look only at Milwaukee to see that positive growth is indeed possible even in a coach's first year. I saw nothing in 2016-17 that convinced me that we were moving in the right direction. That's a little scary since we seem wedded to the new regime for the long haul.

2. Many times we looked out coached by teams with far less natural talent. From the awful start with losses to GLIAC teams to our sputtering ending in the league tournament, the Titans looked overmatched way too often. Add to that the (so far) lack of positive recruiting news, it makes it difficult to remain optimistic. Again, I hope I'm wrong. But I still can't figure out why we'd sign a complete coaching novice to lead us to the promised land. Sure, it's a bold move, but being bold just for the sake of being bold doesn't mean a lot.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby titanmike » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:20 am

MooseGuy1 wrote:My point, sarcastic though it was, was not that we should've stayed with Ray. It was actually twofold:

1. There's been this continuing notion that some of the problems in BA's first year is attributable to Ray "leaving the cupboard bare". That is pure nonsense. A coaching transition is bound to create growing pains but this season's failure went well beyond growing pains. One need look only at Milwaukee to see that positive growth is indeed possible even in a coach's first year. I saw nothing in 2016-17 that convinced me that we were moving in the right direction. That's a little scary since we seem wedded to the new regime for the long haul.

2. Many times we looked out coached by teams with far less natural talent. From the awful start with losses to GLIAC teams to our sputtering ending in the league tournament, the Titans looked overmatched way too often. Add to that the (so far) lack of positive recruiting news, it makes it difficult to remain optimistic. Again, I hope I'm wrong. But I still can't figure out why we'd sign a complete coaching novice to lead us to the promised land. Sure, it's a bold move, but being bold just for the sake of being bold doesn't mean a lot.


Not withstanding a good point about the cupboard being left bare, you cannot compare UWM and Detroit. A lot more underlying problems in the D then across the lake. You say you saw nothing in 16-17 that suggests we are moving in the right direction?

1. Corey, Jaleel, Pat, Malik, Josh, Gerald all improved over the course of the year, some more than others, and some not just on the court.
2. We started out 2-14 and then went 6-9.
3. We haven't completed a full year since BA hire and we seem to want to have expectations similar to our lofty expectations of being in the big east.

Outcoached

1. One of the biggest clichés in coaching. Not to suggest that it doesn't ever occur, but I would suspect we are less likely to recognize it than our coaches peers.
2. We did sputter in the tourney, agreed., but what expectations did we really have.
3.I don't think many people realize all that was wrong behind the scenes. That isn't all on Ray either, so I want to be clear about that.
4. Recruiting Patience needs to be exercised. It is only fair. The April signing period is important and we all know this, but I am not going to sit in judgment until after it is over. Nor will I presume that it will be awful as we simply don't know.
5. Milwaukee's Jordan a complete novice also. Yes, better results this year, but again, what lurks in the shadows hurts.

Expectations going forward. Gradual improvement over 3 years resulting in sustained excellence. We have to at least allow for that.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby titanmac » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:38 am

be honest sam. you wouldn't fire anyone ever. just give them a hug and say "go out and play. have fun!"
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:36 pm

Mike: What you say is true...mostly. The players you listed all improved individually and there was an uptick in Ws at the end of the season. How much of that is due to coaching? I can't quantify that. I think that it was mostly a combination of factors, including getting adjusted to a new system under Coach Alexander. But I also think that the improvement to 6-9 is partly due to the fact that those were conference games in a down year for the Horizon League. We were awful in the non-con section of the schedule. Of course, the same can be said for UWM and their push at the end. By the way, touche on their coach being a novice as well. Can't debate that.

As to the signing period, again, good point. It might all come together.

Also, no argument with steady progression in the next three years. I'd take that with a codicil that by that third year we should be challenging for the top spot in the HL.

Mac: Sam is more analytical than you give him credit for. It is true that he's a person who genuinely cares about other people, and values the inherent decency in people like Ray. Therefore he treats them accordingly, and is reluctant to add to their burden. Not a bad philosophy. But he's not some gullible softy. He has a quick mind to go with a good heart. We've discussed many subjects and Sam is both insightful and capable of strong opinions. Still, I've met no one in whom I've ever sensed more graciousness. In the final analysis, he's the kind of person you want in your life when the chips are down and that's not a bad legacy to leave.

By the way, Mac, methinks you are a bit of a softy, too...deep inside maybe but I've sensed it's there. By the way, that's a compliment. :)
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby titanmac » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:40 pm

humbug! ;)
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby titanmike » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:41 am

MooseGuy1 wrote:Mike: What you say is true...mostly. The players you listed all improved individually and there was an uptick in Ws at the end of the season. How much of that is due to coaching? I can't quantify that. I think that it was mostly a combination of factors, including getting adjusted to a new system under Coach Alexander. But I also think that the improvement to 6-9 is partly due to the fact that those were conference games in a down year for the Horizon League. We were awful in the non-con section of the schedule. Of course, the same can be said for UWM and their push at the end. By the way, touche on their coach being a novice as well. Can't debate that.

As to the signing period, again, good point. It might all come together.

Also, no argument with steady progression in the next three years. I'd take that with a codicil that by that third year we should be challenging for the top spot in the HL.

Mac: Sam is more analytical than you give him credit for. It is true that he's a person who genuinely cares about other people, and values the inherent decency in people like Ray. Therefore he treats them accordingly, and is reluctant to add to their burden. Not a bad philosophy. But he's not some gullible softy. He has a quick mind to go with a good heart. We've discussed many subjects and Sam is both insightful and capable of strong opinions. Still, I've met no one in whom I've ever sensed more graciousness. In the final analysis, he's the kind of person you want in your life when the chips are down and that's not a bad legacy to leave.

By the way, Mac, methinks you are a bit of a softy, too...deep inside maybe but I've sensed it's there. By the way, that's a compliment. :)


I am confident that the improvement of the players mentioned was a result of a combined effort by the coaching staff. We were awful in the non-con, you are correct. I would argue that many probably wondering when we were going to win our first D1 game. As I would also argue that having gone 6-9 at the end shows improvement as we lost to schools we shouldn't have in the non-con and the teams we beat in the HL were the better teams , i.e. Oakland and GB and giving Valpo all they could handle. Conference games are currently the best hope we have and many HL schools , hoping for a chance at the dance.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby NC Titan » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:11 am

Commish, what has been our D1 non-conference record over the past five or so years? I've been waiting for a signature non-conference win, oh, forever.
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Re: Worst Titan Team Ever?

Postby Commissioner » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:26 pm

NC Titan wrote:Commish, what has been our D1 non-conference record over the past five or so years? I've been waiting for a signature non-conference win, oh, forever.

D-I games only, last decade:

2016-17: 1-10
2015-16: 4-5
2014-15: 5-8
2013-14: 5-8
2012-13: 6-7
2011-12: 5-6
2010-11: 5-7
2009-10: 7-4
2008-09: 3-6
2007-08: 3-6

BTW, I've been calling for us to downgrade our non-conference schedule, which is consistently among the toughest in the Horizon. I think it would be a big help to building some enthusiasm to have a team or two get off to a really good start, even it it is against inferior competition.
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