Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby ptctitan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:19 pm

I would just point out that it is easier for any athlete to remain academically eligible as a 1st and 2nd year student than it is to remain eligible as a 3rd and 4th year student because the percentage of the minimum GPA for graduation is lower in the first year and increases each year thereafter. So, if UD(M)'s minimum GPA required to graduate is 2.0, then a student with a consistent 1.75 GPA would not encounter any issues in his first or second years because 1.4 and 1.6 would be the minimum eligibility requirements. But he would start to run up against problems if the GPA remained the same in his 3rd and 4th years because the student would have to maintain a 1.8 GPA in 3rd year with a minimum number of credits and be on track to graduate in his major. That would also apply to the athlete's 4th year in which he would now have to maintain a 2.0 GPA.

OU's Jalen Hayes ran into eligibility issues because his specific major required an even higher grade in required courses for graduating in that major. He would have been ineligible for the entire fall semester this season if he and OU had not appealed and got the penalty reduced to a 4 game suspension. Hayes had a 2.6 GPA, I believe.

The player bears the responsibility to get sufficient grades to maintain eligibility. As to Hogan, since no one here really knows how he performed academically in each of his years, it is foolish to judge a coach successful if you don't really know what exactly happened. It's a false choice to assign blame to any coach when a player fails to maintain academic eligibility when we do not know all of the facts.

My critique of Ray goes to the decline in talent recruited from 2012-13 to his last season and his decision to recruit mainly JUCO and 4-year transfers instead of more high school players.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:16 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:
uofdfan1983 wrote:Since I am being dragged into this again:

It is simple to me. When you recruit a player with questionable academics, you are gambling, because you are recruiting a player with questionable academics. The variable Mike brings up: "it's ultimately up to the player" brings into play the student athlete's character, motivation to study, etc. And as someone else pointed out: basketball is a tough sport because it involves most of two semesters and lots of travel.

There is only so much that the student can do to improve his grades if he isn't smart enough to do college work to begin with.

If you bring in a player who doesn't really belong in college, be prepared for academic problems. Even with lots of tutoring support, and even if he is a good guy (and I truly believe that Jaleel is a good guy), expect problems, especially at a "real" school like U-D which doesn't have a Major in Recreation Administration or Athletic Basketweaving.

So simple:
Jaleel is on Ray
Tariq is on Bacari


It's even simpler than that. Jaleel being eligible for the entire time Ray was his coach is on Ray. Jaleel becoming academically ineligible twice in the time BA has been his coach is on BA.



I'm not sure it's simple at all.

Couple of items:

If we apply Tom's logic, it assumes that Ray should have been a psychic and somehow known that Jaleel would flame out academically, not in his freshman or sophomore years, but in his last year and a half. That leaves only 2 possibilities, one of which is absurd and paints Ray in a bad light. Ray would've had to have known for a certainty that he would be canned just before Hogan's final 2 seasons and therefore Hogan's ineligibility would be someone else's problem (Bacari's, as it turns out). That's not only implausible but, yet again, makes Ray a "bad guy". Despite the protestations, his detractors appear to almost want Ray to be the scapegoat for all of our current issues. That's why Sam, myself, and other supporters of Ray get angry. Go ahead, criticize his abilities or his judgments, that's fair game for any coach. But the suggestion that Ray is responsible for a player flunking out AFTER he's left is not only illogical (he's not a prophet) but also attributes an almost narcissistic malignancy to his character. That's not who Ray is. He took a chance on Hogan and kept him eligible while he was here. That's it and nothing more.

I think the more likely scenario (and it applies to BA and Tariq, as well) is that mid-majors with recruiting challenges have to take chances on players who are academically borderline. They talk to the kids, their parents, coaches, etc. and try to make an educated guess as to their ultimate success as both a student and athlete. Just as I have no problem with Ray recruiting Jaleel, I have no issue with BA bringing in Tariq. I'm guessing he and Ray recruited these 2 players with each man believing he could keep his recruit eligible and, just as importantly, was willing to take the risk because of his basketball skills. It's a risk/reward scenario of the kind that everyone makes in all kinds of areas of life.

An example: Person A (let's call him Ray) is willing to fly from Detroit to Los Angeles for business and willing to take the risk that it will crash, believing that risk too small to counteract the reward of getting there in 5 hours . Ray sits down and buckles up. Unbeknownst to him, the pilot of the plane doesn't extend the flaps and instead of going to LA, the plane never gets past Romulus, going down in a fireball. Now Ray is dead and the airplane's flying career is over.

Person B (um...lets call him Bacari) get's Ray's job and is dispatched two days later to LA. Bacari doesn't like to fly, believing the risk is too great. But he digs trains and 2 days later he is merrily cruising through Nebraska, feeling good but unaware that the engineer is sipping from a hip flask filled with 151 proof Everclear to relieve the boredom of Nebraska's endless prairies. The Engineer eventually passes out (as you would and I have), misses a signal to switch tracks and meets an eastbound freight train head on. As you can guess, it's a trainwreck and everyone including Bacari are killed. What lessons can we learn?

Ray's detractors would say that Ray shouldn't have ever gotten on that plane...it was a stupid risk and he should've known damn well that planes crash sometimes. Some might even find a way to blame him for Bacari's death because Ray should have known ahead of time that he would be dead in two days and need to be replaced. Furthermore, he should have known that Bacari is scared of flying but just freaking loves the railroads, thereby setting in motion Bacari's demise.

So, in truth is either Ray or Bacari to blame for the plane and train wrecks? Of course not! Ultimately the fault lies with the pilot and the engineer who failed to do their jobs, thus becoming inelegible to ever fly a plane or engineer a train, respectively, again. Ray took a risk on the plane and lost. Bacari took a risk on the train and also lost. To a Division 2 freight train, no less. But both risks were reasonable. The fault was in the people opertating the travelling vessels.

To bring it all back to basketball, ultimately, Jaleel (the metaphorical pilot) and Tariq (the metaphorical engineer) are at fault if they are deemed ineligible.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:14 pm

That's a graphic and detailed metaphor, Moose, but your meaning is clear. :-)
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Rogobob77 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:29 pm

R.B.J1 wrote:
Rogobob77 wrote:At the luncheon, BA said both are now officially considered academically ineligible. He said the door was not completely closed, suggesting that there was a possibility that the players could obtain a grade change by virtue of some late submitted academic work submitted to professors. I didn’t get the vibe that was a strong possibility, especially since the Fall semester came to an end nearly a month ago.


I really hate to see Hogan depart on a sad note. I've been following titan basketball for over 30 years and I cant recall a player being declared academically ineligible for the 2nd semester of his Senior season. :(

In Dick Vitale’s first year as coach (1973-74), Senior guard Chester Wilson became ineligible after the first semester due to a grade he received in a political science class. While on the team, U-D started the season 9-1 including wins over Michigan and Michigan State (the only loss during that stretch was by 4 points at Illinois). After the loss of Wilson, the Titans played .500 ball the second half of the season and finished 17-9. Wilson was an important part of the team, averaged 7.4 ppg, 2.7 apg, during his truncated final year. If Wilson could have retained his eligibility, chances are that Vitale might have made it to a post-season tournament in his initial year at the helm. I recall hearing that the coaches were trying to negotiate for a take-home do-over final exam for Wilson, but that didn’t fly with the professor.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby TitanVoiceofReason » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:59 am

Rogobob77 wrote:
R.B.J1 wrote:
Rogobob77 wrote:At the luncheon, BA said both are now officially considered academically ineligible. He said the door was not completely closed, suggesting that there was a possibility that the players could obtain a grade change by virtue of some late submitted academic work submitted to professors. I didn’t get the vibe that was a strong possibility, especially since the Fall semester came to an end nearly a month ago.


I really hate to see Hogan depart on a sad note. I've been following titan basketball for over 30 years and I cant recall a player being declared academically ineligible for the 2nd semester of his Senior season. :(

In Dick Vitale’s first year as coach (1973-74), Senior guard Chester Wilson became ineligible after the first semester due to a grade he received in a political science class. While on the team, U-D started the season 9-1 including wins over Michigan and Michigan State (the only loss during that stretch was by 4 points at Illinois). After the loss of Wilson, the Titans played .500 ball the second half of the season and finished 17-9. Wilson was an important part of the team, averaged 7.4 ppg, 2.7 apg, during his truncated final year. If Wilson could have retained his eligibility, chances are that Vitale might have made it to a post-season tournament in his initial year at the helm. I recall hearing that the coaches were trying to negotiate for a take-home do-over final exam for Wilson, but that didn’t fly with the professor.


A few years later (apprx. the late 1970's to early 1980's) Chester Wilson was a volunteer at one of the school's telethons making phone calls to alums asking for donations. I spoke with him afterwards and I came away with a positive impression of him. He came across as a genuinely good person. He did tell me that the players on the 1976-77 team (Tyler, Long & Duerod's team that beat Marquette) felt they could have won the national championship that year if Kevin Kaseta didn't suffer a season-ending knee injury.

As far as Hogan, I hope he stays in school, works hard and get his degree and a few years from now when any of us meet him, whether it be at a game or someplace else, that we come away with the same positive impression I did after my chance encounter with Chester Wilson. It's obvious the members of this board have a great deal of respect for Jaleel not only as a basketball player but as a person too.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby uofdfan1983 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:27 pm

Moose, you missed your calling. Same as the Commish did.

I blame Ray for bringing in certain players, for sure, but I do not blame him for taking Hogan. Was it a risk? Of course. It was a much higher risk than taking the plane or the train, but it was a solid risk to take nevertheless. Hogan is a good person who has done nothing to embarrass the University. Taking Hogan was akin to taking a string of potholed filed alleys to California. Not the easiest way to get to the promised land, but a way there when options are few. Hogan is a man with good character and is a good basketball player and teammate. He is a better way to the NCAA Tourney than riding Tariq Avenue or floating down The Seine River to Paris. Taking the potholed alleys is a way to the Final Four. Not an easy way, but when you're U-D you don't get to fly there on the Concord (another Paris reference, sorry). If the choice is the potholed alleys or trying to find the Cumberland Gap, try the alleys.

My point is just this: most kids who struggle in high school struggle in college. They might make it through, but they might not. You know that truth when you admit them into your school. Back when I was at U-D, we had Project 99. We took 99 students every year who did not qualify for regular admission. They had special tutoring and support. U-D administration eventually dropped Project 99 because the overall graduation rate was very poor. Did some of them make it? Of course. Did it make a huge difference in the lives of some of those kids? Of course. Was it the fault of the professors and tutors who worked with them if they flunked out? Of course not.

As I said, I don't really blame Ray for taking Hogan. I like Hogan and he brought me much enjoyment. He is a warrior on the court and a good guy. But to transfer "blame" for his eventual dropping below minimal GPAs to Ray's successor is just stupid. If Hogan was 0.1 points above the minimum GPA his first two years, and then 0.1 points below the minimum GPA his next two years, what does that mean? It means he's always been a borderline student handling U-D academics while also playing hoops. First year, second year, third year, fourth year. That's all it means. Bacari inherited a good player/good guy/borderline student. His GPA was just above eligibility and then dropped just below. Maybe he took the "wrong" class. Maybe it was too "hard" for him. But maybe that "wrong" class was an upperlevel class that he needed for his major. Or maybe that "wrong" class was a class he really wanted to take...maybe he is enjoying the academic pursuit and someone told him to take a certain class that sounded interesting to him and it caused him one additional academic problem that pushed his GPA under the minimum. There may be NO blame at all in any of this. My point is just that you can't blame Bacari; no way no how.

I actually prefer bringing in a marginal high school recruit over a JUCO most of the time. With some exceptions, JUCOs are even riskier academically, and sometimes they get a horrible freshman/sophomore education in Community College that makes junior year impossibility difficult.

In the end, I won't blame Ray for bringing in Hogan; and I won't blame Bacari for bringing in Tariq (although Hogan was a better gamble than Tariq was). But Hogan is still "on" Ray and Tariq is still "on" Bacari. I will say this: Ray has been around long enough to know exactly the gamble he was taking, which was a much better gamble than the one he took on that JUCO guard from Alabama, for example. Bacari should know better as well because he played for an absolute master at evaluating and handling inner city kids with poor academic backgrounds. The more I think about it, the more it all makes sense why PW was so successful at this: PW was a high school counselor for years, and a great judge of character. He knew the kids he recruited so well. He brought in high-character kids and had very few flameouts. He went against his gut once or twice (Brandon Cotton) but overall his results were amazing. He graduated men of good character. Bacari and JJ were both a part of this culture. JJ coached Tariq in high school so there's no way they didn't know who they were getting.

I hope that clears up my thoughts on this over-analyzed topic. Not as graphic as Moose's allegory but I hope you get my point.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Tom, I think you and I agree on this subject more than we disagree. Recruiting academically challenged players, either from high school or JUCOs, is a bit of an art. Perry Watson appears to have had a certain expertise in that area that Ray and Bacari might not. Ultimately, I think both players were worth a shot. If I knew their backgrounds as these two coaches did, I may have come to the same conclusion and brought them on board, too. As you say, many disparate factors probably influenced their GPA dropping below minimums. What I guess I really believe or feel is that I expect a school like UD-M to have a greater number of flameouts because they have to take greater risks than Power schools. I don't hold this against Ray or Bacari. I'll assume they did their best and Tariq and Jaleel, for whatever reasons, didn't make the cut. That doesn't mean they aren't good people or preclude them from success in life. It just means that they couldn't stay eligible and if a fault has to be assigned to anyone, it's the players and not the coaches. So I don't say that Tariq is on BA or Jaleel is on Ray. Bad things sometimes happen to people with the best of intentions. Now if a huge percentage of players lose their eligibility under a given Head Coach, that would probably be a sign of poor judgment. If a player here or there from any mid-major that struggles to attract recruits flames out, I chalk it up to the cost of doing business. I don't believe Ray is guilty of habitually bad judgment in this area nor do I think Alexander is either. I'm not much into blaming any of the principles involved, actually, including the players. Maybe they did their best and just couldn't hack it. A kid like Bass is the exception. He just about took out a billboard signaling his intent to not even try to succeed. If I had to blame Ray about anyone, it would be about Paris Bass. But even then, Paris was a uniquely gifted player (much more so than Hogan or Jones) and Ray probably thought the upside was too good to pass up. And, if I'm honest, I felt the same way about Paris until he cratered his career. All in all, it's just a series of unfortunate occurrences and I feel no need to blame either coach. I often agree with Sam because we tend to think alike on most subjects, but if he believes Hogan is on Bacari, much as he likes Tom Izzo, I would respectfully disagree with him. It's not on BA and it's not on Ray. That's my view in a nutshell. I liked Ray a lot but he is in Atlanta now. Bacari is the coach and I wish him success. Period. Full stop.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:Tom, I think you and I agree on this subject more than we disagree. Recruiting academically challenged players, either from high school or JUCOs, is a bit of an art. Perry Watson appears to have had a certain expertise in that area that Ray and Bacari might not. Ultimately, I think both players were worth a shot. If I knew their backgrounds as these two coaches did, I may have come to the same conclusion and brought them on board, too. As you say, many disparate factors probably influenced their GPA dropping below minimums. What I guess I really believe or feel is that I expect a school like UD-M to have a greater number of flameouts because they have to take greater risks than Power schools. I don't hold this against Ray or Bacari. I'll assume they did their best and Tariq and Jaleel, for whatever reasons, didn't make the cut. That doesn't mean they aren't good people or preclude them from success in life. It just means that they couldn't stay eligible and if a fault has to be assigned to anyone, it's the players and not the coaches. So I don't say that Tariq is on BA or Jaleel is on Ray. Bad things sometimes happen to people with the best of intentions. Now if a huge percentage of players lose their eligibility under a given Head Coach, that would probably be a sign of poor judgment. If a player here or there from any mid-major that struggles to attract recruits flames out, I chalk it up to the cost of doing business. I don't believe Ray is guilty of habitually bad judgment in this area nor do I think Alexander is either. I'm not much into blaming any of the principles involved, actually, including the players. Maybe they did their best and just couldn't hack it. A kid like Bass is the exception. He just about took out a billboard signaling his intent to not even try to succeed. If I had to blame Ray about anyone, it would be about Paris Bass. But even then, Paris was a uniquely gifted player (much more so than Hogan or Jones) and Ray probably thought the upside was too good to pass up. And, if I'm honest, I felt the same way about Paris until he cratered his career. All in all, it's just a series of unfortunate occurrences and I feel no need to blame either coach. I often agree with Sam because we tend to think alike on most subjects, but if he believes Hogan is on Bacari, much as he likes Tom Izzo, I would respectfully disagree with him. It's not on BA and it's not on Ray. That's my view in a nutshell. I liked Ray a lot but he is in Atlanta now. Bacari is the coach and I wish him success. Period. Full stop.


I only offered up the idea that BA was responsible for Hogan, Grant, AFS, etc., after other people started claiming that the responsibility for their ineligibility rested with the coach who was gone by the time they had their academic struggles. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that the players bear the bulk of that responsibility, and ever since a player that Ray didn't recruit became ineligible, others are buying into that idea as well.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:49 pm

I figured as much, Sam. So, again, your take lines up with mine. If I could just get you to see the light on Izzo... :D
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:56 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:I figured as much, Sam. So, again, your take lines up with mine. If I could just get you to see the light on Izzo... :D


LOL. Going to get you an IZZONE t-shirt as a gift one of these days. :-)
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Rogobob77 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:13 pm

Hogan and T Jones were both on the team bench today, suggesting they’re still in academic limbo. At the luncheon on Wednesday, BA said that he expected the situation to be resolved one way or the other in the next few days.
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Re: Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

Postby JimmyChitwood » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:19 am

I corrected the title of this thread again. I hope there is no limit on the number of edits I can make.
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Re: Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

Postby sacredheartgreg » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:28 am

Jimmy, can you add fat and slim into the title?
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Re: Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:51 pm

JimmyChitwood wrote:I corrected the title of this thread again. I hope there is no limit on the number of edits I can make.


Yeah, it was certainly time for a title adjustment. I didn't want to suggest it, but for the sake of accuracy, it was the right call.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:13 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:I figured as much, Sam. So, again, your take lines up with mine. If I could just get you to see the light on Izzo... :D


LOL. Going to get you an IZZONE t-shirt as a gift one of these days. :-)


Go ahead and do it. I need a rag to wash the car this summer.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:02 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:I figured as much, Sam. So, again, your take lines up with mine. If I could just get you to see the light on Izzo... :D


LOL. Going to get you an IZZONE t-shirt as a gift one of these days. :-)


Go ahead and do it. I need a rag to wash the car this summer.


:-) Anything I can do to help.
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Re: Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:31 pm

Any word on Hogan? Can we officially say he's done and won't surprise us by showing up the last 2 games?
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Re: Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

Postby DetroitHoopsFan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:41 pm

I feel like him being out this long, it is really not likely that he would suddenly just reappear for the Horiozon tournament. And plus, what kind of shape would he realistically be in right now after not playing for a couple months? What a waste of a senior season.
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