Hogan is Staying, leaving, staying, ineligible....

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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Rogobob77 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:51 pm

At the luncheon, BA said both are now officially considered academically ineligible. He said the door was not completely closed, suggesting that there was a possibility that the players could obtain a grade change by virtue of some late submitted academic work submitted to professors. I didn’t get the vibe that was a strong possibility, especially since the Fall semester came to an end nearly a month ago.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby R.B.J1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:00 pm

Rogobob77 wrote:At the luncheon, BA said both are now officially considered academically ineligible. He said the door was not completely closed, suggesting that there was a possibility that the players could obtain a grade change by virtue of some late submitted academic work submitted to professors. I didn’t get the vibe that was a strong possibility, especially since the Fall semester came to an end nearly a month ago.


I really hate to see Hogan depart on a sad note. I've been following titan basketball for over 30 years and I cant recall a player being declared academically ineligible for the 2nd semester of his Senior season. :(
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby R.B.J1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:02 pm

Rogobob77 wrote:At the luncheon, BA said both are now officially considered academically ineligible. He said the door was not completely closed, suggesting that there was a possibility that the players could obtain a grade change by virtue of some late submitted academic work submitted to professors. I didn’t get the vibe that was a strong possibility, especially since the Fall semester came to an end nearly a month ago.


I really hate to see Hogan depart on a sad note. I've been following titan basketball for over 30 years and I cant recall a player being declared academically ineligible for the 2nd semester of his Senior season. :(
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:14 pm

So, I gotta ask, with Hogan and T Jones, are we assigning any blame to the current coach, or are we still blaming these academic issues on the previous coach? Granted, I know that Jones arrived on campus over a year after the previous coach left, but I'm kind of surprised that the connection hasn't been made by someone...
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm

Good grief, Sam. Of course it's Ray's fault. You're just a shameless apologist for the Ray Era. I for one know that back during Ray's last season, Ray encouraged every potential recruit for the next decade that he'd make damn sure they never had to do that "academicky thingy" if they played ball at UDM. Everybody accepts this. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO! You want this pinned on the current staff because of some sick twisted crusade you're on to invalidate all the program building we're doing, one minus 18 point half at a time. I'm frankly ashamed.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:Good grief, Sam. Of course it's Ray's fault. You're just a shameless apologist for the Ray Era. I for one know that back during Ray's last season, Ray encouraged every potential recruit for the next decade that he'd make damn sure they never had to do that "academicky thingy" if they played ball at UDM. Everybody accepts this. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO! You want this pinned on the current staff because of some sick twisted crusade you're on to invalidate all the program building we're doing, one minus 18 point half at a time. I'm frankly ashamed.


You caught me, Moose. I confess. ;)

On a serious note, it breaks my heart to see what has happened to Jaleel during his senior season. I'm not absolving him of blame or responsibility, but just from a personal standpoint, I enjoyed my interactions with the young man and really thought he was capable of a big year. What has happened with him, and with T Jones, is very disappointing. I know you feel the same way, because I know Jaleel was one of your favorite Titans.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:02 pm

Yeah, that's the part that isn't at all funny to me. I liked Jaleel from the start. To have it end like this just bums me out. I talked with him once at the JLA and he came across as a very decent young man. And I practically lived and died with his free throws. Inside, I'd be trying to will the ball into the hoop because I knew it bothered him and he took flack about it. It is one of those mind game things that I know all too much about. It was like the game didn't just come naturally; he worked very hard to accomplish what he did, often against players 5 or 6 inches taller. This is not supposed to be an obituary, so I'll stop. Hoping and praying he gets reinstated, plays well, and graduates.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby ptctitan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:59 am

MooseGuy1 wrote:Yeah, that's the part that isn't at all funny to me. I liked Jaleel from the start. To have it end like this just bums me out. I talked with him once at the JLA and he came across as a very decent young man. And I practically lived and died with his free throws. Inside, I'd be trying to will the ball into the hoop because I knew it bothered him and he took flack about it. It is one of those mind game things that I know all too much about. It was like the game didn't just come naturally; he worked very hard to accomplish what he did, often against players 5 or 6 inches taller. This is not supposed to be an obituary, so I'll stop. Hoping and praying he gets reinstated, plays well, and graduates.


Me, too. Jaleel is a warrior who represented us well on the court. And he seems like a good person who tried hard and cares about his teammates. Those are qualities that any employer would want from an employee. I will always remember his game at Oakland last year. And that he played well vs NKU. And he tried to get the grades needed to remain eligible. Even though his playing career is most likely over, I will not forget him and would help and encourage him so that he makes the rest of his life a success.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby titanmike » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:30 am

Motor City Sam wrote:So, I gotta ask, with Hogan and T Jones, are we assigning any blame to the current coach, or are we still blaming these academic issues on the previous coach? Granted, I know that Jones arrived on campus over a year after the previous coach left, but I'm kind of surprised that the connection hasn't been made by someone...


From my previous post. "... not ultimately accountable for the grade issues of players. I am confident that both try, along with staff, to get the kids to class etc. I was wrong before. Last night a players dad reminded me. These players are adults, the responsibility of success in the classroom and on the court is on ..."

This was my comment to suggest I may have been wrong about Ray on this to a certain extent. If we put blame on BA for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him eligible to play this year in the first place. Which maybe Ray did with some of his problem kids also. Point is, it is on the kids more than anyone else.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Commissioner » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:32 am

Yes, very disappointing. Watching Jaleel has been a real pleasure. He never mastered the free throw. My sense was always that he was getting better, but he'd have streaks where he was just totally psyched out and it pushed his numbers down. His FT pct. fell his junior year and again this year. But he was always working on improving all aspects of his game. His footwork and moves around the basket got better each year. Last year you could see him working to add that little 10-15 foot jumper, with some success. Always foul prone, he reduced his foul rate each year. His points per game went up; his assists per game went up; his rebounds, blocks, and steals per game went up. At least all these things happened until this year, when his game regressed on virtually every level and by every measure. I'm sure nobody is more disappointed with this final season than Jaleel.

Still, it's been a good collegiate career. Assuming he is finished, Jaleel ends up 34th on the Titans' all-time list for points with 1082--the 41st Titan to reach 1000 points. His career FG% is .589, second on the Titans' all-time list behind Eli Holman. Jaleel was HL Player of the Week one year ago this week, after his 39 point, 11 rebound performance against Oakland (he was the first Titan to get that recognition since Nick Minnerath in the 2013 season). He is one of just 28 Titans to be named first or second team all-conference since the Titans joined the MCC/Horizon 36 years ago (those 28 players were named to the first or second team 45 times total).Whether you want to call him a Titan "great" depends, I guess, on how loosely you define the term. But by any standard he's been a very good player. I'll especially remember all the times Hogan backed down or split taller defenders and muscled the ball to the hoop, his game face, and of course, that magnificent performance against Oakland.

I hope he sticks around and completes his degree, and wish him well. Proud to have had him a Titan on the court.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:55 pm

titanmike wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:So, I gotta ask, with Hogan and T Jones, are we assigning any blame to the current coach, or are we still blaming these academic issues on the previous coach? Granted, I know that Jones arrived on campus over a year after the previous coach left, but I'm kind of surprised that the connection hasn't been made by someone...


From my previous post. "... not ultimately accountable for the grade issues of players. I am confident that both try, along with staff, to get the kids to class etc. I was wrong before. Last night a players dad reminded me. These players are adults, the responsibility of success in the classroom and on the court is on ..."

This was my comment to suggest I may have been wrong about Ray on this to a certain extent. If we put blame on BA for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him eligible to play this year in the first place. Which maybe Ray did with some of his problem kids also. Point is, it is on the kids more than anyone else.


Yes, I noticed that when you posted it. So was it T Jones becoming ineligible that made you change your mind? Or that along with the words from that parent? Just curious.

Also, the line "to suggest I may have been wrong about Ray on this to a certain extent" would make a politician proud. That, along with saying "which maybe Ray did with some of his problem kids, also" while being a lot more direct about BA being worthy of applause, was an interesting bit of wordplay.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby ptctitan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:20 pm

There is a history of coaches here trying to keep players eligible. I remember Dick Vitale describing (jokingly) the lengths to which he went with one of his recruits. Words to this effect.

"I even asked the professor to add all of the kid's test scores up and use the total number so he could remain eligible; but when we did that, it still wouldn't have been enough." :o :)

In Jaleel's case, there is no blame to be assigned to anyone. He improved under both coaches. He worked very hard to stay eligible. He was one of the first guys on the court hugging Corey after his buzzer-beater vs Cleveland State. That says a man of good character. In the end, that is more important than a GPA that may be a few tenths under the minimum requirement.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby MooseGuy1 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:21 pm

I agree, ptc. I have a feeling that someone willing to work that hard will be successful in some area of life. Still hoping he graduates, though, and makes the most of his degree whether he plays again or not.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby titanmike » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:33 am

Motor City Sam wrote:
titanmike wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:So, I gotta ask, with Hogan and T Jones, are we assigning any blame to the current coach, or are we still blaming these academic issues on the previous coach? Granted, I know that Jones arrived on campus over a year after the previous coach left, but I'm kind of surprised that the connection hasn't been made by someone...


From my previous post. "... not ultimately accountable for the grade issues of players. I am confident that both try, along with staff, to get the kids to class etc. I was wrong before. Last night a players dad reminded me. These players are adults, the responsibility of success in the classroom and on the court is on ..."

This was my comment to suggest I may have been wrong about Ray on this to a certain extent. If we put blame on BA for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him eligible to play this year in the first place. Which maybe Ray did with some of his problem kids also. Point is, it is on the kids more than anyone else.


Yes, I noticed that when you posted it. So was it T Jones becoming ineligible that made you change your mind? Or that along with the words from that parent? Just curious.

Also, the line "to suggest I may have been wrong about Ray on this to a certain extent" would make a politician proud. That, along with saying "which maybe Ray did with some of his problem kids, also" while being a lot more direct about BA being worthy of applause, was an interesting bit of wordplay.


What changed my mind was totally based upon what the parent had said. It seems to make the most sense. To much reading into it. If you would rather I have said If we put blame on Ray for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him to play in the first place, I don't mind, but Ray isn't the current coach.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:49 pm

titanmike wrote:What changed my mind was totally based upon what the parent had said. It seems to make the most sense. To much reading into it. If you would rather I have said If we put blame on Ray for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him to play in the first place, I don't mind, but Ray isn't the current coach.


Yeah, maybe I read too much into it. But you see how it looks. Like you said, Ray's not the current coach. Yet, a lot of comments on this board have been quick to give him blame for the current state of the Titans, including blaming him for the academic ineligibility of players who remained eligible while he was the head coach and then ran into trouble after he left. That's been pretty consistent. Now, we find out a Titan player that Ray had nothing to do with is facing academic troubles, and all of a sudden there is either silence on the question of who is responsible or "I changed my mind; it's on the players themselves". It's a notable shift on what seemed to be an intractable position just a short time ago.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby titanmike » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:35 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:
titanmike wrote:What changed my mind was totally based upon what the parent had said. It seems to make the most sense. To much reading into it. If you would rather I have said If we put blame on Ray for Jaleel, then we have to also applaud him for getting him to play in the first place, I don't mind, but Ray isn't the current coach.


Yeah, maybe I read too much into it. But you see how it looks. Like you said, Ray's not the current coach. Yet, a lot of comments on this board have been quick to give him blame for the current state of the Titans, including blaming him for the academic ineligibility of players who remained eligible while he was the head coach and then ran into trouble after he left. That's been pretty consistent. Now, we find out a Titan player that Ray had nothing to do with is facing academic troubles, and all of a sudden there is either silence on the question of who is responsible or "I changed my mind; it's on the players themselves". It's a notable shift on what seemed to be an intractable position just a short time ago.


I am not being silent. I may be 50, but opinions change through knowledge and experience. I have evolved. Nothing is intractable.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby uofdfan1983 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:37 pm

Since I am being dragged into this again:

It is simple to me. When you recruit a player with questionable academics, you are gambling, because you are recruiting a player with questionable academics. The variable Mike brings up: "it's ultimately up to the player" brings into play the student athlete's character, motivation to study, etc. And as someone else pointed out: basketball is a tough sport because it involves most of two semesters and lots of travel.

There is only so much that the student can do to improve his grades if he isn't smart enough to do college work to begin with.

If you bring in a player who doesn't really belong in college, be prepared for academic problems. Even with lots of tutoring support, and even if he is a good guy (and I truly believe that Jaleel is a good guy), expect problems, especially at a "real" school like U-D which doesn't have a Major in Recreation Administration or Athletic Basketweaving.

So simple:
Jaleel is on Ray
Tariq is on Bacari
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Tacitus651 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:48 pm

Good post, Tom. I think coaches make themselves want to believe in certain players. Either because of the athletic skill they possess, or even life circumstances where you think, man we need to get this kid out of THIS situation and give him a chance in life. And then the HS coach advocates for the player and the mentor at the YMCA or wherever. And then the single parent who insists ______ really is a "good kid." Ray was a veteran coach so it's on him. He should have been able to read people and make those decisions. With Bass, Ray made a really poor decision in hindsight. In Jaleel, I still want to believe Ray made a good decision. As an instructor I've seen students that do not belong in college based on ability or attitude and it's a huge pain to deal with. I've seen borderline students based on ability but who try VERY hard. Those students usually pull through but not always, and I've seen STEM requirements trip them up time and time again. Like I said, it's a challenge to get through and in season every hour counts for those guys. Very hard at a school like UDM with small class sizes and no free passes given to athletes.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby Motor City Sam » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:10 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:Since I am being dragged into this again:

It is simple to me. When you recruit a player with questionable academics, you are gambling, because you are recruiting a player with questionable academics. The variable Mike brings up: "it's ultimately up to the player" brings into play the student athlete's character, motivation to study, etc. And as someone else pointed out: basketball is a tough sport because it involves most of two semesters and lots of travel.

There is only so much that the student can do to improve his grades if he isn't smart enough to do college work to begin with.

If you bring in a player who doesn't really belong in college, be prepared for academic problems. Even with lots of tutoring support, and even if he is a good guy (and I truly believe that Jaleel is a good guy), expect problems, especially at a "real" school like U-D which doesn't have a Major in Recreation Administration or Athletic Basketweaving.

So simple:
Jaleel is on Ray
Tariq is on Bacari


It's even simpler than that. Jaleel being eligible for the entire time Ray was his coach is on Ray. Jaleel becoming academically ineligible twice in the time BA has been his coach is on BA.
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Re: Hogan is Staying

Postby JimmyChitwood » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:27 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:So simple:
Jaleel is on Ray
Tariq is on Bacari

Huh? So Ray should have suspected that Jaleel, for whatever reasons, would pass his first 3 years but not his last, two years after Ray left? Maybe it was the classes chosen or mentoring, but Hogan was eligible when Ray was coach. Period, and simple. Under BA, he sort of left the team for a while, got out of shape, and became ineligible. Hogan cannot be on Ray, and maybe not even on BA . . . but certainly not on Ray. Coaches help players pick classes, keep track of their progress throughout the semester, and provide a lot of help. They are in it together.

A student not passing ultimately lies with the student, and some students just aren't great at book learning. But the coaches do oversee all of their academics so at least a little blame lies with the coach. I'm sure its not easy to go to school and play a DI sport, but most students-athletes handle it just fine.

Usually, by the 3rd and 4th year students know which professors and classes "fit" them and which ones to stay away from. And high school grades and test scores are not always indicative of how well a student will do in college.
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