Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby 77-85Titan » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:57 pm

Titans96 wrote:We have three good players in Chatman, Hogan and Allen. Chatman and Allen are not being allowed to excel because of our new ball hog point guard who thinks he is the best player on the team doesn't let the real stars shine. Hogan has had his difficulties this year, which is disappointing, but hopefully he can turn those issues around.

A good coach with any skill and knowledge would focus 90%+ of the offense around those three players. Players who don't pass the ball to those three, and players who shoot more three's than anyone on the team (at a 0%-20% clip - so terrible), should either be told they are not allowed to shoot anything but a layup or they will be benched. If we had a good coach, JJJr would never be allowed to shoot a 3 again until he reached 10 assists. The kid needs to learn how to pass the ball and get assists before he shoots 3 pointers (let alone learn how to play defense). JJJr's goal is to be the highest scorer on the team, when it should be the leading assist maker in the country. The sad part of this is that Daddy will not understand this, is not capable of coaching his kid (or the other players) on how to play properly and is not skilled enough to be our coach.


Well said. Assists first, 3 pointers later (or never). It's a showdown right now between Lonzo Ball and Jr to see who can shoot the worst. Startlingly, Lonzo is not the worst. I'm going to the UCLA game on Sunday and dread seeing 3 small guards go up against the Bruins. It will look like a layup drill all game. Let's see some of our taller players play some big minutes and keep the three pointers (taken and missed) to a minimum which is the only way to stay within 30 points. Horizon League smallball will not work.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby titandave » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:21 pm

77-85Titan wrote:Well said. Assists first, 3 pointers later (or never). It's a showdown right now between Lonzo Ball and Jr to see who can shoot the worst. Startlingly, Lonzo is not the worst. I'm going to the UCLA game on Sunday and dread seeing 3 small guards go up against the Bruins. It will look like a layup drill all game. Let's see some of our taller players play some big minutes and keep the three pointers (taken and missed) to a minimum which is the only way to stay within 30 points. Horizon League smallball will not work.

Agree with you point on importance of our front court getting playing time vs. UCLA. When Thomas Welsh and Gyorgy Goloman are on the floor for the Bruins; we'll need to have truly outstanding performance from Hogan, Blackshear and Price. Maybe this is the breakout game for Price ... he'll be playing in his former backyard. 8-)
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby udballer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:05 pm

I also am not a fan of the small ball regardless of whether or not the coaching staff sees those three guards as 3 of our 5 best players. I hate penciling in "L"s on the schedule simply because we were out-sized. We need to get our frontcourt some additional experience if they are going to be expected to play at this level. If we continue going with a 3 guard lineup and getting hammered on the boards, we might as well admit that the scholarships to Long, Eichler and I. Jones should have been pocketed.

Hoping that the Titans can grow into a team that handles the Indiana University Purdue University - Fort Wayne's of the world... even on the road.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby titandave » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:27 pm

udballer wrote:I also am not a fan of the small ball regardless of whether or not the coaching staff sees those three guards as 3 of our 5 best players. I hate penciling in "L"s on the schedule simply because we were out-sized. We need to get our frontcourt some additional experience if they are going to be expected to play at this level. If we continue going with a 3 guard lineup and getting hammered on the boards, we might as well admit that the scholarships to Long, Eichler and I. Jones should have been pocketed. Hoping that the Titans can grow into a team that handles the Indiana University Purdue University - Fort Wayne's of the world... even on the road.

Understand and agree with your point on penciling in "L"s on the schedule simply because we were out-sized. To add insult to injury; in the game vs. Fort Wayne .... McFolley, JJJr, and Allen played a total of 96 minutes and contributed only 5 assists.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby titanmac » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:58 pm

we need to get t jones back. the sooner the better.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:45 pm

dennycrane wrote:This was the classic example of a too small lineup being unable to prevail over a more balanced team in terms of size and trying to do it on the road as well. There will be more such games. Collectively, the starting guards scored 34 points but took 96 minutes to do it. If you want to include Dre, who plays a steady, competent game, in my view, the numbers are 39 and 116. In the first half, quite a number of long rebounds were missed resulting in second and third chances (some of) which were converted. We have 7'0" and 6' 11" guys who never left the bench in this game, even for a cameo appearance. Rochon, too, is a proven West Coast warrior who can help us, if he's allowed to. Last night, he had an uneven game, one point, five fouls but some good interior defense. Jaleel had his best game (of the year) but was also out late while the guards played too much.

The Commissioner cites the 0-9 run late in the (first) half. He's correct but it was 0-12 spanning halftime. That deficit forced us to play from behind the entire second half after leading 34-30. That we gained back most of the deficit is laudable, as pct points out, but we never got the upper hand and there's a difference playing that way.

96 is too hard on JJ Sr, in my opinion. He coached with passion at Nashville and we pulled out the second game. St Louis was a surprising win; he probably deserves some credit there too. The task is difficult though, juggling a talented group, several of whom are generally accustomed to handling the ball.



THIS^^^^

dennycrane, you saw this game precisely as I did. That should scare you. ;) Nevertheless, we got killed by the size difference and you saw the difference between a team that plays as a team, moves the ball well to find an open shot. By the way, FW digs the 3 point as much as we do. The difference is that their size gave them extra opportunities and second chance baskets. With our guys it's down the court and fire away. What we have in size, we underutilize. Chatman is the deal. We should be looking to run plays for him consistently. The long 3 with 25 seconds on the shot clock just doesn't strike me as the best strategy. Hopefully, the various parts will gel as the season progresses. I really believe we have some decent talent but are not using it in the ways that give us the optimal chance of winning.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby udballer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:00 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:I really believe we have some decent talent but are not using it in the ways that give us the optimal chance of winning.


Saying this, Moose, is saying you don't necessarily believe the assistant coach is the heir apparent should BA be relieved of his duty.

Not downing your statement at all, just saying that's how I read it. I've made my thoughts clear and I want a fresh start if something goes (even more) haywire with this staff.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

We had 85 possessions. Ft. Wayne had 85 possessions. We had 18 turnovers. Ft. Wayne had 15 turnovers. When the smoke cleared, Ft. Wayne took and made 2 more 3-point shots than us and 1 more 2-point field goal than us. Both teams took 36 two-point FG shots. That's a net 3-possession difference that was worth 8 of the 9 point scoring differential.

Of the 85 possessions, we ran 21 through Chatman and 16 through Allen. Of those 37 possessions, 11 resulted in turnovers, 6 by Chatman and 5 by Allen. The rest of the team combined had 7 turnovers.

In the second half, we adjusted the offensive scheme and took only 8 three point shots and made 4. Two of those were missed in the last two minutes. Plus JJJr made all 3 FT's when he was fouled on a missed 3-pt attempt during our big run. Ultimately, it was a bad first half by Corey that turned out to be the difference. He missed all 5 three-pointers, committed 3 turnovers, and scored only 2 points. This happens to the best players - even Steph Curry and Lebron. And foul trouble limited McFolley to 26 minutes instead of the 34 he played against SLU.

Ultimately, in spite of our self-inflicted wounds, we still had a chance to win, but could not do so. I happen to think that we are using our talent pretty well given Hogan's lack of playing shape, the injury to Tariiq, and Prince's slower than expected adjustment to our system. But the statistics correlate very closely with the turnover differential being the main reason for our loss. And the statistics also prove that we did not spend the majority of the second half running down the court and jacking up dozens of quick 3-point shots.
Last edited by ptctitan on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby MooseGuy1 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:56 pm

udballer wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:I really believe we have some decent talent but are not using it in the ways that give us the optimal chance of winning.


Saying this, Moose, is saying you don't necessarily believe the assistant coach is the heir apparent should BA be relieved of his duty.

Not downing your statement at all, just saying that's how I read it. I've made my thoughts clear and I want a fresh start if something goes (even more) haywire with this staff.


Yes, I think you read it right. It is hard to have much faith in this staff at this point. Hopefully, that will change but the silence from the AD makes us uneasy at this point and looks bad.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby udballer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:47 pm

ptctitan wrote:We had 85 possessions. Ft. Wayne had 85 possessions. We had 18 turnovers. Ft. Wayne had 15 turnovers. When the smoke cleared, Ft. Wayne took and made 2 more 3-point shots than us and 1 more 2-point field goal than us. Both teams took 36 two-point FG shots. That's a net 3-possession difference that was worth 8 of the 9 point scoring differential.

Of the 85 possessions, we ran 21 through Chatman and 16 through Allen. Of those 37 possessions, 11 resulted in turnovers, 6 by Chatman and 5 by Allen. The rest of the team combined had 7 turnovers.

In the second half, we adjusted the offensive scheme and took only 8 three point shots and made 4. Two of those were missed in the last two minutes. Plus JJJr made all 3 FT's when he was fouled on a missed 3-pt attempt during our big run. Ultimately, it was a bad first half by Corey that turned out to be the difference. He missed all 5 three-pointers, committed 3 turnovers, and scored only 2 points. This happens to the best players - even Steph Curry and Lebron. And foul trouble limited McFolley to 26 minutes instead of the 34 he played against SLU.

Ultimately, in spite of our self-inflicted wounds, we still had a chance to win, but could not do so. I happen to think that we are using our talent pretty well given Hogan's lack of playing shape, the injury to Tariiq, and Prince's slower than expected adjustment to our system. But the statistics correlate very closely with the turnover differential being the main reason for our loss. And we the statistics also prove that we did not spend the majority of the second half running down the court and jacking up dozens of quick 3-point shots.


That is a better statistical breakdown than I'll ever have the love to put together, so props for that. :D

That said, in my very simple terms, we should be able to overcome a couple of extra turnovers to beat a mid-level Summit team. The product we're putting out there is not very good, and not reflective of the talent on this team. A bit of defense would go a long way to cure some of these ills, but I'm not sure anyone on the current staff values defense at the level I do.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby titanmac » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:32 am

mooseman: im not uneasy. but i do want t jones back.
In Greek mythology, the Titans were greater even than the gods. They ruled their universe with absolute power! Well that basketball court out there tonight, that's our universe. Let's rule it like Titans! (with apologies to coach boon)
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:02 am

udballer wrote:That said, in my very simple terms, we should be able to overcome a couple of extra turnovers to beat a mid-level Summit team. The product we're putting out there is not very good, and not reflective of the talent on this team. A bit of defense would go a long way to cure some of these ills, but I'm not sure anyone on the current staff values defense at the level I do.


Thanks udballer. I went through the stats in order to see if they verified the perceptions of some posters above about how we played the game. Were we not getting the ball to Chatman? Was JJJr just running down the floor and hoisting unwise 3-point shots when the game was on the line in the second half? Did the coaches not make any adjustments to the Ft. Wayne defense? The actual data answers those questions, "No. No. And No."

I agree. We did not play as well as we could have played. But Ft. Wayne is not that bad of a team. And their defense caused some of our turnovers. That said, we still had 4 chances to tie or take the lead and dictate the last 3 minutes of the game with slower possessions and made FT's. We fed Chatman 3 of those 4 chances. This time, he was unable to convert. Black took the other attempt.

As to defense, we are playing better. We have a positive turnover ratio and our defensive field goal percentage has improved to 46.6% from 50% last year. We'll see if that continues against all D-1 opponents from here on out. Ft. Wayne's FG% was 47.6% for the game. As a point of reference, U-M made the tourney last year with a 46.5% defensive FG%.

If we had only spotted them 14 points ... ;)

As to Tariiq, we are getting to the point where JJ said that he could be ready to play - assuming that he is off crutches and his rehab has gone well. We could use his length and quickness on defense against UCLA.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby udballer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:49 am

I'm only saying that, in my opinion, a 46.6% defensive field goal percentage should not be a target... especially for a mid-major with any plans on making noise at any time in the future.

I think those Butler teams gave all mid-majors a blueprint for what it will need to look like for a Horizon team to consistently compete with major colleges. Those Butler teams held opponents to 41.6% and 42.4% shooting... while slowing the game down. Worked pretty well for them.

I'm in no way expecting my Titans to be playing for the title anytime soon, but I do think strong defense is key to any potential success. There's no reason to think a team like ours will be beating North Carolina 125-124 at any point... ever.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby titandave » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:26 pm

ptctitan wrote:As to Tariiq, we are getting to the point where JJ said that he could be ready to play - assuming that he is off crutches and his rehab has gone well. We could use his length and quickness on defense against UCLA.

That would be great ..... I really like what we've seen thus far from Tariiq. :)
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby dennycrane » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:49 pm

Just a few points in what for me is a wrap up of the Fort Wayne topic, pct. First, I second the baller's compliment in regards to your dissection of the game stats in relation to how the game actually played out. Very detailed. Second, the opponent looked like it may contend for the Summit crown along with the Jackrabbits, who normally show well. Two other teams from the Dakotas, Omaha, Denver and W. Illinois typically are also rans. That leaves Oral Roberts, which I know little about. IPFW seems to have a well rounded team though.

I might have asked a fourth question, ie. would a consistently taller lineup have fared better in that game and for me, the answer would be yes. None of I. Jones, Cole or Eichler saw a bit of action in the game, while T. Jones remains injured, apparently. All are 6'7" or more. If we are to consistently start a smaller lineup throughout the season, it must be productive. If not, the record will be adversely affected.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:39 pm

udballer and dennycrane - thanks for a great discussion. My only point about defensive FG % is that we are trending in the right direction after an abysmal start to the season. We should strive to be better than 46.6%. Hopefully, we continue to trend even better.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby udballer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:42 pm

Couldn't agree with you more.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby Motor City Sam » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 pm

udballer wrote:I also am not a fan of the small ball regardless of whether or not the coaching staff sees those three guards as 3 of our 5 best players. I hate penciling in "L"s on the schedule simply because we were out-sized. We need to get our frontcourt some additional experience if they are going to be expected to play at this level. If we continue going with a 3 guard lineup and getting hammered on the boards, we might as well admit that the scholarships to Long, Eichler and I. Jones should have been pocketed.

Hoping that the Titans can grow into a team that handles the Indiana University Purdue University - Fort Wayne's of the world... even on the road.


Good points, Baller. The problem with small ball is that it usually only works if you're shooting the ball well enough to overcome the areas in which the offense will be limited due to size. So far this season, our guards haven't shot the ball consistently well enough. Basically, you have three guys on the court who all do the same thing and haven't done it well enough so far. There are some match ups in the HL where that three guard line up will be effective, though. Fort Wayne was picked by publications to finish 5th in the Summit League, but they look better than some of the HL teams so far.

Prince's struggles have been most surprising to me.
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Re: Fort Wayne Loss Preview & Game Thread

Postby Commissioner » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:30 pm

Ft. Wayne was picked 4th in the Summit League Poll. Were they a Horizon team I expect they would have been picked 4th, too, after OU, NKU, and UIC.
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