Bacari's Defensive Goals

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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby ptctitan » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:53 am

Dude - How do you mean? I don't disagree that this year's team is (as you put it) "a turd." I do disagree about what has caused this to occur.

Some here have said that they cannot recall when things have been worse. As a fan, I endured a far worse time from the 1986-87 season to the 1990-91 season, when we were a combined 40-104. We had three consecutive 7-win seasons. Sicko was 7-24. Mulroy was 7-20. Byrdsong was 26-58. In the Sicko-Mulroy season, we were 5-22 in the regular season and lost the first 14 games in a row including a loss to Grand Valley - 2 wins in the MCC tourney got us to 7 wins.

The last two years of Perry's tenure and the first year of Ray's tenure were also just as bad as now, 25-65.

Mostly, this results from the talent, attitudes, and experience of the players on the roster. Secondarily, it results from things that cannot be controlled by the coach; e.g., grades and injuries. Down the list are the coaches themselves. Perry Watson did not become a worse coach in his final two years here. Ray was not a bad coach in his first year here. Jim Harding did not become a bad coach when he went 7-18. Often, it is the fit between the players and the coach.

Rollie Massimino is thought to have been a very good college coach. In 7 seasons at Cleveland State, he had a losing record with only 2 seasons above .500. Yet he won a national championship at Villanova. His first two seasons at Villanova were 7-19 and 9-18. Was he a bad coach his first two years at 'Nova? Was he a bad coach at Cleveland State? You guys are the experts. You tell me.

Or are W-L records of any coach the product of other factors beyond the person(s) on the sidelines?
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:32 am

Some fair points made by ptc. All of that plus the contract issue makes be believe BA gets a third year. I highly doubt Vowels has an out after year 2. Some people say things like "if this were a business you'd cut your losses and fire BA now." The thing is, we are not a business. We are a nonprofit educational institution. Assuming there is no out until after year 4, we are talking about a million dollar hit to the school. As much as it sucks, BA probably stays. Vowels needs to be canned yesterday.
Last edited by Tacitus651 on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby The-Dude » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:32 am

polish away PTC...
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Titans96 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:39 am

Bacari's Defensive Goals are paying big dividends - the Titans are ranked 349 (out of 351) in defense and ranked 288 in rebounding differential.

How can the AD feel confident that the team is improving and has a bright future? How does PTC "polish" these stats (turds)?
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby TitanTarHeel » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:29 am

"Down the list are the coaches themselves."

I appreciate PTC's optimism and belief in the program at this time, I do. But at this point he's making it sound like BA and staff are victims here rather then them holding any accountability that this is THEIR team and THEIR program. THEY bring players in. THEY teach them the system. THEY assist in keeping them eligible. Or in shape (or in Hogan's case, both).

I've been critical of Hogan for letting his senior year collapse as it has. There's a HUGE amount of blame that starts with him. What if he just didn't care anymore? (which is my assessment based on letting grades and weight lapse after having both under control for 3 years). That's on BA and staff when players aren't buying in to such a degree that Hogan said 'screw it', especially when many posters on here talk about meeting Hogan and that he came across as a nice guy, a gentleman.

But hey, at least we aren't MSU gymnastics right now or Penn State football from a few years ago. We are clearing that hurdle so BA is certainly doing things right.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:42 am

It's true that we've seen some bad basketball from the Titans over the decades. I was up close and personal for the Sicko years. The Byrdsong years were difficult, also. I think what frustrates me most about this current two year period is that BA wasn't hired to revive a consistently losing program. He was hired because twenty win seasons and just getting to the NCAA tournament and the NIT weren't good enough. (I don't disagree with people who want better than that for U of D basketball.) No one was talking about the painful process of single digit win seasons in the Titan's near future when BA was hired. The Titans were predicted to be around .500 the past two seasons. That makes the current struggles all the more difficult for fans, particularly as it coincides with a big drop in attendance.

U of D is not an easy job for a head coach. We should all keep that in mind.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:27 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:It's true that we've seen some bad basketball from the Titans over the decades. I was up close and personal for the Sicko years. The Byrdsong years were difficult, also. I think what frustrates me most about this current two year period is that BA wasn't hired to revive a consistently losing program. He was hired because twenty win seasons and just getting to the NCAA tournament and the NIT weren't good enough. (I don't disagree with people who want better than that for U of D basketball.) No one was talking about the painful process of single digit win seasons in the Titan's near future when BA was hired. The Titans were predicted to be around .500 the past two seasons. That makes the current struggles all the more difficult for fans, particularly as it coincides with a big drop in attendance.

U of D is not an easy job for a head coach. We should all keep that in mind.


Spot on, Sam. In fact, I was promised that the recruits would be lining up once BA took the reins. In actuality, not so much. It was a big part of the reason I was okay with seeing how BA turned out, regardless of the suggestions that he would not be a great (or good) X's and O's guy. Talent can hide a lot of coaching flaws... so it would be okay if the recruiting results were great. With these recruiting results, we need(ed) to hire a great coach.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Commissioner » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:46 pm

udballer wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:It's true that we've seen some bad basketball from the Titans over the decades. I was up close and personal for the Sicko years. The Byrdsong years were difficult, also. I think what frustrates me most about this current two year period is that BA wasn't hired to revive a consistently losing program. He was hired because twenty win seasons and just getting to the NCAA tournament and the NIT weren't good enough. (I don't disagree with people who want better than that for U of D basketball.) No one was talking about the painful process of single digit win seasons in the Titan's near future when BA was hired. The Titans were predicted to be around .500 the past two seasons. That makes the current struggles all the more difficult for fans, particularly as it coincides with a big drop in attendance.

U of D is not an easy job for a head coach. We should all keep that in mind.


Spot on, Sam. In fact, I was promised that the recruits would be lining up once BA took the reins. In actuality, not so much. It was a big part of the reason I was okay with seeing how BA turned out, regardless of the suggestions that he would not be a great (or good) X's and O's guy. Talent can hide a lot of coaching flaws... so it would be okay if the recruiting results were great. With these recruiting results, we need(ed) to hire a great coach.


Agreed. Ray was canned not because we were doing all that poorly--we'd had a winning record (if barely) his last season and were not far removed from back-to-back NCAA/NIT appearances, but because it was perceived that he had peaked, that .500 wasn't good enough, that someone else was needed to "take us to the next level." And yes, we were told the recruits would flock in. The idea was that the new coach would build on Ray's efforts, which had restored the program to respectability. Sam was one of the few wise enough to call for caution. It was also suggested that Ray was losing control of the team, that the "culture" was bad. But Grant, Foster-Smith, and Hogan were all eligible under Ray. Ray never had to be suspended. It's hard to see the turnaround in "culture."

The other thing that is frustrating is that there is just not much sense of direction or progress. That's what makes me skeptical that a third year--though probably a given--won't make much difference.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Tacitus651 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:52 pm

I miss Ray.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:25 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:I miss Ray.


I absolutely wanted Ray gone... to give us a chance to move forward.

I miss Ray, too. ;)
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby MooseGuy1 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 pm

I miss Ray, as well. No surprise there. I didn't know whether to be cautious with my optimism for BA or not. I talked with Sam a lot and he seemed to feel that we'd better temper expectations. Like most things about the team, what he said made sense. I also felt that Ray became the focus for all that was wrong about the program according to some. That aggravated me to no end because I just couldn't see Ray as "a problem". He did his best to behave with class and his teams played hard for him. He certainly wasn't part of a bad culture.

In defense of Bacari or Sicko or Bydsong, this is a tough place to coach high-level basketball. Therefore, I tend to cut them all some slack. Still, I never thought the drop off would be so dramatic.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Motor City Sam » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:26 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:I miss Ray, as well. No surprise there. I didn't know whether to be cautious with my optimism for BA or not. I talked with Sam a lot and he seemed to feel that we'd better temper expectations. Like most things about the team, what he said made sense. I also felt that Ray became the focus for all that was wrong about the program according to some. That aggravated me to no end because I just couldn't see Ray as "a problem". He did his best to behave with class and his teams played hard for him. He certainly wasn't part of a bad culture.

In defense of Bacari or Sicko or Bydsong, this is a tough place to coach high-level basketball. Therefore, I tend to cut them all some slack. Still, I never thought the drop off would be so dramatic.


I'm glad that Coach Ray landed at Georgia State, where he is the associate head coach on the staff of Ron Hunter. I follow GSU because of McCallum, and they're having a pretty good seaosn. 16-6 and 7-2 (second place) in the Sun Belt conference.

Nothing wrong with legit criticism of any college coach, but things got crazy on this board and at the games over the last few years of Ray's tenure. Hopefully, those who claimed that "anyone would do better than McCallum" have realized that they were wrong. But even I didn't expect this drop off.

On the plus side, tomorrow's game against IUPUI gives us a chance to start righting the ship.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:30 pm

If given the job as replacement for Vowels, I'm confident that I can completely right the ship in a 2 year span. Either that, or make it worse. There will be no gradual improvement, that I promise you. :)
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby R.B.J1 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:27 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:
MooseGuy1 wrote:I miss Ray, as well. No surprise there. I didn't know whether to be cautious with my optimism for BA or not. I talked with Sam a lot and he seemed to feel that we'd better temper expectations. Like most things about the team, what he said made sense. I also felt that Ray became the focus for all that was wrong about the program according to some. That aggravated me to no end because I just couldn't see Ray as "a problem". He did his best to behave with class and his teams played hard for him. He certainly wasn't part of a bad culture.

In defense of Bacari or Sicko or Bydsong, this is a tough place to coach high-level basketball. Therefore, I tend to cut them all some slack. Still, I never thought the drop off would be so dramatic.


I'm glad that Coach Ray landed at Georgia State, where he is the associate head coach on the staff of Ron Hunter. I follow GSU because of McCallum, and they're having a pretty good seaosn. 16-6 and 7-2 (second place) in the Sun Belt conference.

Nothing wrong with legit criticism of any college coach, but things got crazy on this board and at the games over the last few years of Ray's tenure. Hopefully, those who claimed that "anyone would do better than McCallum" have realized that they were wrong. But even I didn't expect this drop off.

On the plus side, tomorrow's game against IUPUI gives us a chance to start righting the ship.


+1 MCsam, Ron Hunter was a finalist for the UofD job when we hired Ray in 2008.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:25 pm

Game 7 : IUPUI (Home)

Entering the game, IUPUI was shooting: .421 FG%, .346 3FG%. They were averaging 67.6 points and 14.5 turnovers per game.

vs. Detroit Mercy

FG% - 41.4%
3FG% - 40%
Points - 60
Turnovers - 18
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Tacitus651 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:00 pm

CHAOS DEFENSE!

#FloorburnU
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:52 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:CHAOS DEFENSE!

#FloorburnU


Lol.

It is official tho that the 60 points allowed to IUPUI is the first statistic that meets a BA defensive goal since the goals were announced. We will see if it carries into tomorrow when we see UIC.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby MooseGuy1 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:00 pm

Our free throw defense was stunning, baller. We held them to 50%.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby udballer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:39 am

Game 8 : UIC (Home)

Entering the game, UIC was shooting: .448 FG%, .327 3FG%. They were averaging 72.6 points and 15.7 turnovers per game.

vs. Detroit Mercy

FG% - 45%
3FG% - 43.8%
Points - 78
Turnovers - 14

One very consistent and significant fact that we can glean from the first 8 games is that teams REALLY enjoy shooting the three against our defense.

Just did some quick math and our opponents as a whole appear to shoot about 34% from deep coming into the game against us. Playing us, they shoot about 43% from deep. This equates to an extra 6-9 points per game being scored on us that aren't scored on better defensive teams.
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Re: Bacari's Defensive Goals

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:11 pm

Cleveland State shot about 73% the first 10 minutes. I think if we step up our game we can hold them to 60% the next 10.
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