The point guard poll

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Which point guard would you like to be the starter

JJJr (look for the future)
7
30%
Josh Mcfolly (try win now)
16
70%
Black
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 23

The point guard poll

Postby JDetroitTitan » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 am

Please keep it light in this discussion. Keep it positive
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby udballer » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:08 am

I'm happy to have the guards that we currently have on this team. That said, I think it should take a truly gifted player to be planted in the starting lineup as a true frosh and remain there regardless of the outcome of the actual games. UDM has looked abysmal all season and the coaching staff has tried nearly everything to turn it around. Well, they've tried everything but changing the starting PG, I guess.

There is no shame in being a 2 or 3 year starter. McFolley should be starting this season.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby TitanVoiceofReason » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:44 pm

At the next Roundball Luncheon one of you should ask BA why JJJ gets the playing time he does and what does McFolley have to improve on to win the starting PG spot.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby sacredheartgreg » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:54 pm

You don't give out the keys to the car until they are earned.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby R.B.J1 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:20 pm

udballer wrote:I'm happy to have the guards that we currently have on this team. That said, I think it should take a truly gifted player to be planted in the starting lineup as a true frosh and remain there regardless of the outcome of the actual games. UDM has looked abysmal all season and the coaching staff has tried nearly everything to turn it around. Well, they've tried everything but changing the starting PG, I guess.

There is no shame in being a 2 or 3 year starter. McFolley should be starting this season.


I wonder if JJJR. was promised the starting PG position when he was recruited? Mcfolley is bigger,stronger and plays better defense. In my opinion they are equal on the offensive end, JJJr. actually finishes at the rim better than McFolley. McFolley blows a lot of 1 vs 0 layups. McFolley should defenitely be the starter at PG.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby ptctitan » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:42 pm

How do you guys know that JJJr has not earned his starting PG role and not outplayed his competitors in practices?
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby udballer » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:59 pm

Practice? We talkin about practice? Practice?
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby Motor City Sam » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:14 pm

udballer wrote:I'm happy to have the guards that we currently have on this team. That said, I think it should take a truly gifted player to be planted in the starting lineup as a true frosh and remain there regardless of the outcome of the actual games. UDM has looked abysmal all season and the coaching staff has tried nearly everything to turn it around. Well, they've tried everything but changing the starting PG, I guess.

There is no shame in being a 2 or 3 year starter. McFolley should be starting this season.


I've thought all season that Allen and McFolley should start, based on what they did last season, unless JJ Jr. just blew everyone away with his play during games. I never liked the idea of a three guard lineup with three small guards. I would have planned to bring JJ Jr. off the bench as he became acclimated to D1 ball, considering it the best way to help his development. Obviously the coaching staff has different ideas, and given the win/loss record, every decision they make gets scrutinized and second guessed.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby MooseGuy1 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Josh. For this season, start Josh with Corey and substitute with JJJ. End of story.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby ptctitan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:10 am

So, 7 more minutes of Josh guarding Neeley and Daniels in the first half vs OU would have caused Hayes and Nunn to miss 3-5 more shots.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby UDDRUMMER » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:17 am

I'd like to see some more Josh. I feel JJ JR needs to grow as a player.

I hear Blackshear is injured. I'd like to see some more Josh and Blackshear on the court, they have a chemistry that dates back to high school.
I got a fever..the only prescription is more COWBELL!

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Re: The point guard poll

Postby udballer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:53 am

ptctitan wrote:So, 7 more minutes of Josh guarding Neeley and Daniels in the first half vs OU would have caused Hayes and Nunn to miss 3-5 more shots.


Possibly... if it means that Nunn's man isn't continually having to help out on defense. Or, I suppose they could have just not helped out and we could have watched Nick Daniels make 10 footers en route to a career high in points. Pick your poison, I guess.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby Titans96 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:02 am

ptctitan wrote:So, 7 more minutes of Josh guarding Neeley and Daniels in the first half vs OU would have caused Hayes and Nunn to miss 3-5 more shots.


ptc,

Please stop your attempts at providing Billy Beane type analysis. Do you realize his analysis is dynamic and takes into consideration how the players on the team perform together as a team?

Let's look at your stat analysis from the Oakland game. Rebounds, you say we are rebounding better than last year, but we got out-rebounded by 9 rebounds (imagine if JJJr had not missed 7 shots (most on the team) or shot better than 22% from the field (worst on the team except for Blackshear's 0-1 performance). How does that change your analysis? Let's look at the above notes on Neely. Neely got 7 assists to JJJr's 3 assists. If JJJr shot 4 fewer times and passed the ball for an assist instead, we may have won the game? If JJJr played better defense, maybe Neely doesn't get 7 assists? These are just a few separate statistic points that you conveniently leave out of your analysis.

When you get to have the skill on stat analysis that the Butler program has (and now the Boston Celtics and Ohio State have), then your analysis may have some validity. Until then, it is just garbage in and garbage out.

Also, we are still losing at the same rate as last year against worse teams. How does that play into your analysis?
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:50 am

96 - I asked two questions to understand the logic of the pro-Josh hypothesis. Neither question was answered. And neither question depended upon statistics. As of now, in this thread, none of you know whether JJJr has outplayed Josh in practices. And none of you can say with any certainty that if the minutes were reversed between Josh and JJJr that Nunn and Hayes would have scored less points. Because they were the two players that beat us - not Neeley's 7 assists.

The issue at PG is not whether JJJr is playing to a great level at PG. The issue is whether he plays better than the alternatives currently on the roster. In all facets.

The argument then switches to becoming "Josh is more experienced." OK. Then, why is it incorrect for me to point out that the absence of Hogan and T.Jones from the line-up has weakened our ability to defend because their replacements are less experienced and less talented?

And you think that Josh's shot selection is significantly better than JJJr's? Or that his career history of 189 assists and 159 turnovers means that his PG play would be a significant improvement over JJJr's? Remember, he got the most minutes at PG last year. Keep that in mind when reviewing my response below.

T96, you said:

Also, we are still losing at the same rate as last year against worse teams. How does that play into your analysis?


Not true. Last year, our full season scoring differential was -7.8 vs -5.6 this year. The results of the last three games disprove your point.

At home vs NKU: 2018: L 56-54. 2017: L 81-70. Improvement of 9 points.
At home vs Wright State: 2018: L 80-73. 2017: L 85-72. Improvement of 6 points.
At home vs Oakland: 2018: L 92-86. 2017: L 89-80. Improvement of 3 points.

At the 21-game mark last season, we were 4-17. This season, we are 6-15. Worse than expected, but better than last year.

T96 - I'd be very happy to debate statistics with you since it was a focus of my studies beginning with an advanced placement course as a senior at UDHS.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby Titans96 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:50 am

ptctitan wrote:96 - And none of you can say with any certainty that if the minutes were reversed between Josh and JJJr that Nunn and Hayes would have scored less points. Because they were the two players that beat us - not Neeley's 7 assists.

T96 - I'd be very happy to debate statistics with you since it was a focus of my studies beginning with an advanced placement course as a senior at UDHS.



ptc,

Did you take any psychology or logic courses, or just statistics? First, you are 100% wrong with the statement that Nunn and Hayes were the two players who beat us. Actually the entire OU Team beat our entire Titan Team. As a statistician you should know that.

You are clearly the guy who says Matt Stafford is better than Tom Brady because he has better stats.

You get so consumed by the numbers you lose track of the fact that people are playing these games, not robots. So how teammates play together has equal importance as points, rebounds, assists, etc...

I suggest you study the process and statistical analysis that Butler, Ohio State and the Boston Celtics use. Their process seems to be much more proven than your statistical analysis.

We are one of the worst teams in one of the worst leagues in NCAA D1 Basketball, of which the teams and league have gotten worse this year compared to last year. At least use that data in your analysis.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby JDetroitTitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:04 am

ptctitan wrote:So, 7 more minutes of Josh guarding Neeley and Daniels in the first half vs OU would have caused Hayes and Nunn to miss 3-5 more shots.


PTC, it is not about just exchanging the minutes. It is about you have a player eating up everyone else is minutes up and not performing up to the amount of time on the court. I am not saying in the future jjjr isn't going to be a solid player or even a great player. The real problem is he is taking minutes from Josh and Allen and to try to correct that issue the coaching staff went to this three guard front. This take time from players that play SF, PF and C.

Let look at the present. The line up that should be taking most of the minutes
-Josh PG
-Allen SG
-Chatman SF greater offense player and you will benefit with the miss matches. Also it will be easier to run an offense through him
-Prince PF (prince is a better reb. and plays stronger underneath) he needs to be used for screens rebounding and grinding guys underneath
- Hogan C if he comes back but in the predicament we are in Blackshire but he is battling injury so mix the minutes with Blackshire, Jack and Malik



Let talk about the future (in 2 years). The players that need to be developed for the future is jjjr (PG), Allen** (SG) already develop and imporving, Malik (C), Jack (PF) and ??(SF) maybe Long or find a stud transfer. This line-up he will be big underneath and have range to stretch the floor. This line up get me excited for the future but Malik isn't getting enough minutes to develop. Right now is the time to do it since your center position is up in the air. The problem is the coaching staff is trying to hurry up the development of jjjr and it will hurt Malik development. You have a point position that you are good for another season but you have an issue with the center position next year. You need to be trying to develop your big man this season because you have a big hole for next season in that position.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:10 am

T96 - I taught psychology and I taught logic. What's your background?

In playing any sport, I think that intangibles matter as much as stats. I use stats to test the validity of emotional reactions (including my own) to the results of a game or a series of games.

Your claim about us playing weaker teams in a weaker conference is based upon the RPI. That's a stat. So is every other rating service that will be used by the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee. Consequently, you are using stats to bolster your opinion. Conceptually, your argument is no different than mine - nor is the nature and quality of the evidence you use to support your argument any different than mine. You just don't like my evidence because it contradicts the broad, sweeping statements that you make repeatedly on this forum.

So, let's look at the RPI and see how those numbers integrate with your hypothesis.

This year's RPI as of Sunday. Wright St: 79. NKU: 102. Oakland: 145.

Last year's RPI on 1/23/2017. Wright St: 139 NKU: 189. Oakland: 132.

So, the only opponent that has a worse RPI today versus one year ago today is Oakland. Using your own stats, this shows that we are not losing to worse teams at the same rate as last year.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby The-Dude » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:15 am

ptctitan wrote:T96 - I taught psychology and I taught logic. What's your background?

In playing any sport, I think that intangibles matter as much as stats. I use stats to test the validity of emotional reactions (including my own) to the results of a game or a series of games.

Your claim about us playing weaker teams in a weaker conference is based upon the RPI. That's a stat. So is every other rating service that will be used by the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee. Consequently, you are using stats to bolster your opinion. Conceptually, your argument is no different than mine - nor is the nature and quality of the evidence you use to support your argument any different than mine. You just don't like my evidence because it contradicts the broad, sweeping statements that you make repeatedly on this forum.

So, let's look at the RPI and see how those numbers integrate with your hypothesis.

This year's RPI as of Sunday. Wright St: 79. NKU: 102. Oakland: 145.

Last year's RPI on 1/23/2017. Wright St: 139 NKU: 189. Oakland: 132.

So, the only opponent that has a worse RPI today versus one year ago today is Oakland. Using your own stats, this shows that we are not losing to worse teams at the same rate as last year.


PTC, you can’t sugar coat losing dude :cry:...
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:22 am

JDetroit - I agree that Malik should get more minutes.

With Hogan and the Joneses unavailable, our options are now much more limited. Playing Josh more minutes than JJJr at PG will not change the gaping hole on the front line and will not increase offensive efficiency sufficiently to make any difference in the outcomes in any future games. Josh's history says that he will turn the ball over more times than JJJr. IMO, that will offset any gains from "better defense" and shooting - whatever those terms mean. Nor was Josh ever bashful about taking shots from downtown. Josh should play significant minutes. Just not most of them at PG.

Dude - I am not trying to sugar coat losing. I am responding to specific arguments made by a specific poster. IMO, the most important issue is whether or not this year's team is as bad as last year's team. So far, not. But the lack of significant improvement in W's does not mean that we should blow everything up and start over. That's a very unproductive response to the current situation. In many ways, it's an immature response, IMO.
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Re: The point guard poll

Postby TitanONeill » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:26 am

JJJr, because this season is a wash to me. Need to start looking forward.
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