Bacari's Record

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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby udballer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:00 am

JimmyChitwood wrote:I opened this thread to read what you guys think about Bacari's record. My bad.


Yeah... it kind of wandered off course. Our bad. To the original point, I think Bacari's record is absolutely terrible. I voted in the other poll that he should stick around in the team continues to improve in a number of areas. That was posted a handful of games ago and (so far) I've seen no improvement.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Titans96 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:11 am

[quote="uofdfan1983"]Bacari's record is bad right now, isn't that obvious? On other points:
1) Guys, Ray SR is a good guy but for whatever reason, he and his assistants stopped taking care of the players at the (ridiculously high) level that is apparently required nowadays in major sport Div I teams. Half the team was going to transfer had there not been a change in leadership. That is fact. Ray did some good things while he was here but it was over for him here. That is fact. Vowels had no choice. If you don't believe this, please talk to Robert yourself.





I agree that we should talk to Robert. I also think it would be wise to speak with Ray SR and get his thoughts. I also think it would be wise to speak with some of Ray Sr's assistant coaches to get their input. I also think it would be wise to talk with some of the players on the team (who are now gone) and get their thoughts on the situation. It would also be wise to speak with some of the candidates for the head coach job who had no interest in the job if JJSr was forced on them.
Last edited by Titans96 on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby udballer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:20 am

uofdfan1983 wrote:Bacari's record is bad right now, isn't that obvious?

On other points:
1) Guys, Ray SR is a good guy but for whatever reason, he and his assistants stopped taking care of the players at the (ridiculously high) level that is apparently required nowadays in major sport Div I teams. Half the team was going to transfer had there not been a change in leadership. That is fact. Ray did some good things while he was here but it was over for him here. That is fact. Vowels had no choice. If you don't believe this, please talk to Robert yourself.
2) If Bacari doesn't turn these guys around and buying in 100% to him, he will face the same outcome. The players prefer JJ, right or wrong. I like BA. I think he has the character and charisma and pedigree for this job. I hope he proves me right. The story will be written. Give BA 3 years minimum to install his system, his players, and the necessary "buy in".
3) When the University had to replace Fr. Stockhausen, there weren't any Jesuits with the right CV/interest in becoming President anywhere in the USA. We had NO Jesuit candidates available. Do you want another Sister of Mercy in charge? Today, both Georgetown and Marquette also have lay Presidents. Look it up.


1) Vowels had no choice but to place JJ on staff and hire BA? I'd guess that Vowels' hands weren't tied to that level.

2) Players don't get to choose their coaches and a good coach gets players to buy in immediately, not 2.5 years down the road. Maybe someone should tell the players that "prefer JJ" that he will be leaving along with BA if they fail... so they better start playing for BA (if they're not already). Going into next season, BA's system should already be installed. BA's players will be Cole Long, Malik Eichler, JJJ, Jack Ballantyne, Jacob Joubert, Bass Ollie, SMD (if he is still here), Kam Chatman, Musial Gjysma, Adrian Nelson & Cory Hightower. I'd guess that if BA is going to have any success in year 3, he better also embrace Ray's players (Josh, Corey & Gerald).
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Motor City Sam » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:13 pm

So we're back to talking about Ray, this time on a thread specifically created to discuss Bacari's record? Okay.

As I have said before there is a correlation between how poorly the current coach is doing and much his supporters trash the previous coach, especially when they use general statements that can't objectively be verified such as "half the team was going to transfer".

Hopefully, one day soon, we'll get the Titan program back to the point where the current coach's performance is good enough to carry the majority of the conversation.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Motor City Sam » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:20 pm

titanmike wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:The main issue I have with Garibaldi is the "re-brand", but even with that I am not sure how much of that you blame on him. It's not like he could make a unilateral decision on what we should be called, unless I greatly misunderstand the powers of the University President at U of D. By most metrics, things have improved noticeably on his watch.

If Vowels was in complete control of the decision to fire Ray and hire BA, then obviously that move impacts his job security. The hire of Coach Scott on the women's team looked like a great move up until the start of this season. I have no idea what is going on with the Lady Titans.


I heard over the weekend that the rebrand cant be pinned on him. Basically having told people in Nashville that we would be University of Detroit, only to be undercut by the board of directors and the ignoring of the scarborouh-simpson study. I would be shocked if that study had reported anything but the desire to be University of Detroit again. The board of the directors and the mercy nuns are at fault. Even if we had to be branded Detroit Mercy, the logical choice for athletics was ignored by not using Detroit.


That was always my guess on how things went down. I agree with you on what that study probably showed.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby JDetroitTitan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:29 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:So we're back to talking about Ray, this time on a thread specifically created to discuss Bacari's record? Okay.

As I have said before there is a correlation between how poorly the current coach is doing and much his supporters trash the previous coach, especially when they use general statements that can't objectively be verified such as "half the team was going to transfer".

Hopefully, one day soon, we'll get the Titan program back to the point where the current coach's performance is good enough to carry the majority of the conversation.


I wasn't a big Ray fan but he always played his best players to win games. Coaching he wasn't an XO type of guy but neither is this coaching staff is. I thought Ray kept the program relevant but wasn't the guy to get to the next level. Now I feel that I am in the basement and all I want to be is in the kitchen cooking again. It is sad when you have a forum and you let in OUdrummer. Are forum is trying to be relevant by letting non UofD fans in
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby MooseGuy1 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:01 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:Bacari's record is bad right now, isn't that obvious?

On other points:
1) Guys, Ray SR is a good guy but for whatever reason, he and his assistants stopped taking care of the players at the (ridiculously high) level that is apparently required nowadays in major sport Div I teams. Half the team was going to transfer had there not been a change in leadership. That is fact. Ray did some good things while he was here but it was over for him here. That is fact. Vowels had no choice. If you don't believe this, please talk to Robert yourself.
2) If Bacari doesn't turn these guys around and buying in 100% to him, he will face the same outcome. The players prefer JJ, right or wrong. I like BA. I think he has the character and charisma and pedigree for this job. I hope he proves me right. The story will be written. Give BA 3 years minimum to install his system, his players, and the necessary "buy in".
3) When the University had to replace Fr. Stockhausen, there weren't any Jesuits with the right CV/interest in becoming President anywhere in the USA. We had NO Jesuit candidates available. Do you want another Sister of Mercy in charge? Today, both Georgetown and Marquette also have lay Presidents. Look it up.


Tom, if it helps, although I hated to see Ray go, at this time I'm for giving Bacari the 3 year minimum, too. I think that's only fair. Hopefully, he gets it turned around by next season. I'm rooting for him and not against him.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby MooseGuy1 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:13 pm

STOP!!! We are all at each other's throats and OUdrummer can't resist hanging around our board because we are. I wish Ray had stayed. Bacari's record so far is unacceptable. The rebrand is a lesson in bad rebranding. I'm not sure what to think of Vowels because I thought at first that he was a great hire but our athletics are in the toilet. Some seriously bad basketball is being played at Calihan by the men and the women. Some of what Tom says is indeed generalities (especially concerning Ray, but he isn't the only one) and some of it is solid verifiable information. Like the lack of Jesuit candidates for President. I didn't know that. He does. I accept that even if we differ on Ray. Still, at this point, I agree that with him that we keep Bacari through at least year 3. If we continue to fall off, I think he has to go after next season.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby udballer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:34 pm

MooseGuy1 wrote:
uofdfan1983 wrote:Bacari's record is bad right now, isn't that obvious?

On other points:
1) Guys, Ray SR is a good guy but for whatever reason, he and his assistants stopped taking care of the players at the (ridiculously high) level that is apparently required nowadays in major sport Div I teams. Half the team was going to transfer had there not been a change in leadership. That is fact. Ray did some good things while he was here but it was over for him here. That is fact. Vowels had no choice. If you don't believe this, please talk to Robert yourself.
2) If Bacari doesn't turn these guys around and buying in 100% to him, he will face the same outcome. The players prefer JJ, right or wrong. I like BA. I think he has the character and charisma and pedigree for this job. I hope he proves me right. The story will be written. Give BA 3 years minimum to install his system, his players, and the necessary "buy in".
3) When the University had to replace Fr. Stockhausen, there weren't any Jesuits with the right CV/interest in becoming President anywhere in the USA. We had NO Jesuit candidates available. Do you want another Sister of Mercy in charge? Today, both Georgetown and Marquette also have lay Presidents. Look it up.


Tom, if it helps, although I hated to see Ray go, at this time I'm for giving Bacari the 3 year minimum, too. I think that's only fair. Hopefully, he gets it turned around by next season. I'm rooting for him and not against him.


Wait a minute... what happened to this?

He remains if we see a change in culture, effort, defensive focus and accountability from all parties that remains and builds through the last game.

I'm still on board with this idea. Still waiting to see any of the above come to fruition. If it doesn't, I don't know why a year 3 should be granted. We should have already seen some of the above (ie. defensive focus) for over a year now... but it's been a ghost.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:40 pm

Moose, if BA wins 0 or 1 games in the remainder of this season, would you support letting him go in April? I also generally believe in giving a coach at least 3 or 4 years but there must be some limit to how much we can take.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:27 am

Bacari's record is terrible only if your collective assessment of the team's talent is accurate.

IMO, most of you have overvalued the talent on every team since the 2013-14 season. Since the dark days of October 2012, the talent recruited here declined significantly and we have gaping holes at the post and PG that go back long before the current controversy over JJ vs Josh. Those of you who expected 20 or more wins this year were unrealistic. I guessed 16 W's this season with 5 of those being votes with my heart - not my logic. And I was assuming that we would have last year's Hogan playing from the outset.

The question is whether you want to build a program or do you want the sugar of immediate results. Most of you will answer, "I want both." You can't have both given the state of the roster in April 2016. Given the choice between the two, I want to build a program. That takes more than 2 years and it may take two more years before we see 22 or more W's. I think that Bacari's way can produce a solid foundation upon which to have a very good team. But as I learned when having two new homes built, laying the foundation isn't sexy and always takes a frustratingly long time. And my wife always thought the houses were too small ... until they were finished.

I'd rather build a solid foundation through balanced recruiting that creates a solid core of players in each class that have experience playing in the system. Since every Top 300 recruit is looking to play at a big time school, we have to take the long view here.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby HSScout1 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:03 am

ptctitan wrote:Bacari's record is terrible only if your collective assessment of the team's talent is accurate.

IMO, most of you have overvalued the talent on every team since the 2013-14 season. Since the dark days of October 2012, the talent recruited here declined significantly and we have gaping holes at the post and PG that go back long before the current controversy over JJ vs Josh. Those of you who expected 20 or more wins this year were unrealistic. I guessed 16 W's this season with 5 of those being votes with my heart - not my logic. And I was assuming that we would have last year's Hogan playing from the outset.

The question is whether you want to build a program or do you want the sugar of immediate results. Most of you will answer, "I want both." You can't have both given the state of the roster in April 2016.


I think this is where a lot of people disagree with you. The record is terrible - PERIOD. There is some talent on this team - more talent than being tied for last in the Horizon League in a down year for the League. Heck, we were picked for 4th place in the preseason poll and I know the fans did not vote in the poll!
Also, it seems like Ray is somehow again getting the blame with
the dark days of October 2012
and
given the state of the roster in April 2016

being used.
I, like most of us just want this team to be successful, and I just don't believe BA is capable of bringing this success. I would hope that BA and his blindly devoted supporters can admit he has had his failures, whether it be falling short record wise or defensive goals wise, etc, etc. (I don't even thing he admitted wrong doing with T Jones - calling it a personal issue long after we all knew what had occurred), instead of continually making crazy excuses for him.
As a Titan fanatic, I will root and cheer and watch this team to the bitter end and continue to hope brighter days are ahead.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby titanmike » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:17 am

JDetroitTitan wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:So we're back to talking about Ray, this time on a thread specifically created to discuss Bacari's record? Okay.

As I have said before there is a correlation between how poorly the current coach is doing and much his supporters trash the previous coach, especially when they use general statements that can't objectively be verified such as "half the team was going to transfer".

Hopefully, one day soon, we'll get the Titan program back to the point where the current coach's performance is good enough to carry the majority of the conversation.


I wasn't a big Ray fan but he always played his best players to win games. Coaching he wasn't an XO type of guy but neither is this coaching staff is. I thought Ray kept the program relevant but wasn't the guy to get to the next level. Now I feel that I am in the basement and all I want to be is in the kitchen cooking again. It is sad when you have a forum and you let in OUdrummer. Are forum is trying to be relevant by letting non UofD fans in


People get let in because its freedom of speech. Frankly letting him in only exposes him.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:32 am

I do not blame Ray for the dark days of October 2012. But that was a pivot point in the direction of the fortunes of the men's basketball program. It should be pretty clear that the level and depth of talent on our roster began to decline after that season.

The fact that I push back against certain arguments does not mean that I think the W-L record is not terrible.

I get that most every poster here sees the issue differently than me. So what. You guys have your pity party. It only exposes you, too.

Have good day. Go Titans!
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:42 am

JDetroitTitan wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:So we're back to talking about Ray, this time on a thread specifically created to discuss Bacari's record? Okay.

As I have said before there is a correlation between how poorly the current coach is doing and much his supporters trash the previous coach, especially when they use general statements that can't objectively be verified such as "half the team was going to transfer".

Hopefully, one day soon, we'll get the Titan program back to the point where the current coach's performance is good enough to carry the majority of the conversation.


I wasn't a big Ray fan but he always played his best players to win games. Coaching he wasn't an XO type of guy but neither is this coaching staff is. I thought Ray kept the program relevant but wasn't the guy to get to the next level. Now I feel that I am in the basement and all I want to be is in the kitchen cooking again. It is sad when you have a forum and you let in OUdrummer. Are forum is trying to be relevant by letting non UofD fans in


I think Ray came in at a time the program was in a bad place and got us back in contention in the HL and back to the big post season tournaments. Opinions may vary on what he would have been able to do going forward, but I think he earned the right to not be dragged through the mud by people trying to make excuses for the current coach.

I respectfully disagree, though, that the forum is trying to be relevant by letting fans from other teams in. This board is pretty active and relevant with or without the occasional postings of a fan from another program.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby udballer » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:58 am

HSScout1 wrote:I think this is where a lot of people disagree with you. The record is terrible - PERIOD. There is some talent on this team - more talent than being tied for last in the Horizon League in a down year for the League. Heck, we were picked for 4th place in the preseason poll and I know the fans did not vote in the poll!


Exactly this. The record is what it is... terrible. As soon as I read "The record is only terrible if...", I nearly quit reading. No, in fact, it is terrible... from all angles. Try not to let the BA apologists distort the reality.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Motor City Sam » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:18 pm

HSScout1 wrote:
ptctitan wrote:Bacari's record is terrible only if your collective assessment of the team's talent is accurate.

IMO, most of you have overvalued the talent on every team since the 2013-14 season. Since the dark days of October 2012, the talent recruited here declined significantly and we have gaping holes at the post and PG that go back long before the current controversy over JJ vs Josh. Those of you who expected 20 or more wins this year were unrealistic. I guessed 16 W's this season with 5 of those being votes with my heart - not my logic. And I was assuming that we would have last year's Hogan playing from the outset.

The question is whether you want to build a program or do you want the sugar of immediate results. Most of you will answer, "I want both." You can't have both given the state of the roster in April 2016.


I think this is where a lot of people disagree with you. The record is terrible - PERIOD. There is some talent on this team - more talent than being tied for last in the Horizon League in a down year for the League. Heck, we were picked for 4th place in the preseason poll and I know the fans did not vote in the poll!
Also, it seems like Ray is somehow again getting the blame with
the dark days of October 2012
and
given the state of the roster in April 2016

being used.
I, like most of us just want this team to be successful, and I just don't believe BA is capable of bringing this success. I would hope that BA and his blindly devoted supporters can admit he has had his failures, whether it be falling short record wise or defensive goals wise, etc, etc. (I don't even thing he admitted wrong doing with T Jones - calling it a personal issue long after we all knew what had occurred), instead of continually making crazy excuses for him.
As a Titan fanatic, I will root and cheer and watch this team to the bitter end and continue to hope brighter days are ahead.


You make several good points here, Scout. The Titans were picked to finish fourth in a league that was expected to be better than what the HL has turned out to be so far this season. Trashing the current talent on the team is simply one of those attempts to give BA a break. Besides, is it really debatable that we have enough talent to not lose THREE games to D2 competition the past two seasons? Is it debatable that we had more talent than the last place Milwaukee team that blew us out by twenty plus in the conference tournament?

I do feel that the talent level on the Titans has on occasion been overvalued by fans in recent years, however. That happened most notably on this board during the 2014-15 season when it was stated that the Titans should have only had two losses at the 22 game mark, in spite of having a schedule that to that point had included road games at Oregon, Michigan, Toledo, UCF, Rhode Island, Arizona State, and Northeastern, along with home games against South Florida and Wichita State. Part of the "Ray Must Go" justification at that time was that he hadn't done better than 10-12 with that schedule. Of course, we didn't have Chris Jenkins for the first nine games of that season as he was sitting out due to the transfer rule, but apparently some of us were demanding more from coaches back then than we are now. Back then it was, "Fire the coach! We lost to #11 Wichita State by nine at Calihan." Now it's, "I see positive signs of improvement. We outplayed IUPUI for part of the second half in a 15 point loss."
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby Tacitus651 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:25 pm

^ Gold.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby udballer » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Yep... well done, Sam.
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Re: Bacari's Record

Postby ptctitan » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Let me make a few things clear here in the interest of full exposure - since that was the phrase used. For verification, you can search my older posts.

1. I was not in favor of replacing Ray unless we could clearly improve things. When Ray was fired, I was not an advocate of hiring Bacari.

2. I do not criticize Ray for anything other than being unable to attract enough comparably skilled players to replace Holman, Lowe, Minnerath, Anderson, Calliste, and Ray, Jr. And not all of that is on him.

3. If I blame any one person for the current state of affairs in the Athletic Dept, it is Keri Gaither because she violated her duty to the school and by her actions gave Briggs the ammunition with which to blow up the department and the men's basketball program. That destroyed the coaching staff and led to the situation in which we find ourselves today with Vowels as the AD and Bacari as the coach. The disclosure of her malfeasance in which she (to adapt Moose's phrase) may have literally SD'sD is why we are where we are. Ray tried, but was unable to dig out of that hole. I commend him for his efforts. Even good people fail. I look forward to the day in the near future when we can honor his 2011-12 HL championship team. I don't think we should wait 20 years to do so.

4. I did not say that these second half rallies are moral victories or victories of any kind. I said that they are evidence of an immature team that does not yet know how to win. They are also evidence that the team has not quit, which has been alleged repeatedly by some here.

5. I did say that this year's team is playing a bit better than last year's team. That is not the same thing as saying that it is playing well. And, it would not take all that much for this year's team to play better than last year's. It has translated so far into a slightly better W-L record and some slightly better stats. That's all. And, in the last four games, I have acknowledged that most of the defensive gains have evaporated after Hogan and T.Jones were ruled unavailable to play.

6. I defend Bacari because he is trying to build a program through balanced recruiting of HS players and transfers. That takes time - especially when you are not getting a bunch of Top 300 recruits ... yet. Most of you don't like the lack of immediate success on the court. I don't either; but I'm willing to give him more than two years to turn things around.

I hope for a stronger finish to this season in spite of all the obstacles encountered by our team.

Go Titans!
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