UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby MooseGuy1 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:28 pm

Dre may be limited, talent wise, but he at least tries to get others involved in the offense at the 1 guard. We lost today but it wasn't a completely awful game we played. That's something, I guess.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby JimmyChitwood » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:08 am

Titans96 wrote:Granted he missed every 3 point attempt he made.

That sounds like a Yogi Berra quote. I had to think about it for a second.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby titanmike » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:30 am

upbasketballfan wrote:
Resurget Cineribus wrote:If Chatman had just an average game we would have won.


Chatman had a really bad game and should have sat. He is an extremely selfish player. We had a 3 on one with McFolley wide open for a three. Chatman had the ball with the defender on him and forced a 3 of his own. Is it just me or does Chatman usually run out of gas in the second half? Team played better than I thought they would. UIC has a lot of athletes sort of like the way we used to be when we recruited Athletes instead of dribblers.


Yes Chatman had a bad offensive game, but who would you have put in for him, Ballantyne more minutes? Not enough players on the bench.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby titanmike » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:35 am

Titans96 wrote:Granted he missed every 3 point attempt he made. He also was the leading rebounder on the team. He was exhausted and that hurt his shooting. That’s why the coaches should have stuck with the zone instead of going man-to-man. When a player is exhausted he has a hard time shooting properly, and that happened to Chatman.

The coaches need to know what the players on the court can and can’t do. We have really bad coaches, and they really do not understand the game of basketball or how to coach a team playing that game.


Tell us how you really feel
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:44 am

The emergence of the unexpected competition at PG from Dre and at SG from Josh is a good thing for this team. Hopefully, it will spur Corey and JJJr to play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes. Clearly, we don't need Allen, Chatman, or JJJr to lose by 2-3 possessions to fairly decent teams in our conference. Or to beat the lower ranked teams on our home court.
Depth at guard could be an important positive for us in the HL tournament when we have to play so many games within a few days. Since the Wright State game at home, it has been a real gut check for all involved. My hope is that a stronger team emerges from this ordeal in time for the HL tournament. It could emerge if Corey and JJJr join the other 7 guys in playing together and connected. It's up to them to prove that they can do so.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby udballer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:10 am

ptctitan wrote:The emergence of the unexpected competition at PG from Dre and at SG from Josh is a good thing for this team. Hopefully, it will spur Corey and JJJr to play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes. Clearly, we don't need Allen, Chatman, or JJJr to lose by 2-3 possessions to fairly decent teams in our conference. Or to beat the lower ranked teams on our home court.
Depth at guard could be an important positive for us in the HL tournament when we have to play so many games within a few days. Since the Wright State game at home, it has been a real gut check for all involved. My hope is that a stronger team emerges from this ordeal in time for the HL tournament. It could emerge if Corey and JJJr join the other 7 guys in playing together and connected. It's up to them to prove that they can do so.


I agree that we've seen some semblance of a team over the past two games, with the exception of Kam on a number of possessions. That said, Corey needs to return to the starting lineup the minute he is healthy and ready to go. I'd give Dre a coach's slap and send him back to the bench for the majority of the game. He's proven that he can give us some quality spot minutes and that is, really, the only reason he is on the roster. It's time to find out if the younger, more talented players were paying attention to what happened the past two games. I appreciated the play that we got from Dre, but as you said, all we've proven is that we can lose by a few possessions to the better teams in the league and beat a very bad team at home. I don't think the results were impressive enough to offer a starting role up to an outgoing senior.

Also, I'm not sure that anyone on the staff expects Corey and JJJ to have to "play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes". It's not like the coaching staff took their minutes away... they were simply hurt. I'm expecting to see JJJ back in the starting lineup as soon as he gets healthy... even though it's the wrong thing to do... and has been all season.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Motor City Sam » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:38 pm

udballer wrote:
ptctitan wrote:The emergence of the unexpected competition at PG from Dre and at SG from Josh is a good thing for this team. Hopefully, it will spur Corey and JJJr to play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes. Clearly, we don't need Allen, Chatman, or JJJr to lose by 2-3 possessions to fairly decent teams in our conference. Or to beat the lower ranked teams on our home court.
Depth at guard could be an important positive for us in the HL tournament when we have to play so many games within a few days. Since the Wright State game at home, it has been a real gut check for all involved. My hope is that a stronger team emerges from this ordeal in time for the HL tournament. It could emerge if Corey and JJJr join the other 7 guys in playing together and connected. It's up to them to prove that they can do so.


I agree that we've seen some semblance of a team over the past two games, with the exception of Kam on a number of possessions. That said, Corey needs to return to the starting lineup the minute he is healthy and ready to go. I'd give Dre a coach's slap and send him back to the bench for the majority of the game. He's proven that he can give us some quality spot minutes and that is, really, the only reason he is on the roster. It's time to find out if the younger, more talented players were paying attention to what happened the past two games. I appreciated the play that we got from Dre, but as you said, all we've proven is that we can lose by a few possessions to the better teams in the league and beat a very bad team at home. I don't think the results were impressive enough to offer a starting role up to an outgoing senior.

Also, I'm not sure that anyone on the staff expects Corey and JJJ to have to "play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes". It's not like the coaching staff took their minutes away... they were simply hurt. I'm expecting to see JJJ back in the starting lineup as soon as he gets healthy... even though it's the wrong thing to do... and has been all season.


Agree with all of this, UDB. If the team framework hasn't been instilled in players by this time, sitting out due to being sick probably won't trigger it.

Corey belongs in the starting lineup as soon as he is able to play.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Motor City Sam » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:44 pm

Official attendance was 1113. I only watched the recording on DVR, but once again that seemed way off. Anyone who was there have an estimate on the actual crowd size?
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Commissioner » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:57 pm

ptctitan wrote:The emergence of the unexpected competition at PG from Dre and at SG from Josh is a good thing for this team. Hopefully, it will spur Corey and JJJr to play better within a team framework and earn their way back to more minutes.

I think Corey Allen plays fine within the "team framework." Indeed, I think he is one of the best on the team at doing that, and probably doesn't shoot often enough. So I don't understand that comment. When Allen gets hot, he really should have the ball almost every possession. We should be doing more screens and set plays to get him open for shots, too, thinks me.

As for Triple J, I think the coaches have asked him to do too much. Triple J is a marginal high-major recruit--the kind of player who will have some high major offers but is nothing special for most high major teams, and not in big demand in the Big 10. But he's a real good catch for us and the kind of player we need to get back to where we can start to seriously compete again with MSU and UM for true Blue Chip recruits. He is a good player with the potential to be a real impact player in the Horizon, but he makes freshman mistakes. Rare is the freshman who can come in and take over the point on a full-time basis. Almost everyone on this board has agreed from day 1 that it is a surprise, and probably a mistake, to have him starting and playing so many minutes. Apparently our coaches don't see it that way. I think 15-20 minutes as a backup would be about right. But certainly nothing suggests that the coaches don't think he's playing within the "team framework."
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:12 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:Official attendance was 1113. I only watched the recording on DVR, but once again that seemed way off. Anyone who was there have an estimate on the actual crowd size?

I was tempted to do an actual headcount, but it would have been too painful. I’d say 400 actual attendance. I think they count season ticket no-shows in the official attendance, meaning every number reported in the box score is probably inflated by at least 500. In 44 years of comming to games at Calihan, this is by far the worst it’s ever been.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby TitanVoiceofReason » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:23 pm

BA said during the post game interview Corey Allen & JJJr should be ready to play Friday. The other injured players will not be ready.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Motor City Sam » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:44 pm

Rogobob77 wrote:
Motor City Sam wrote:Official attendance was 1113. I only watched the recording on DVR, but once again that seemed way off. Anyone who was there have an estimate on the actual crowd size?

I was tempted to do an actual headcount, but it would have been too painful. I’d say 400 actual attendance. I think they count season ticket no-shows in the official attendance, meaning every number reported in the box score is probably inflated by at least 500. In 44 years of comming to games at Calihan, this is by far the worst it’s ever been.


Just reading that is painful. I'm sure writing it was no joy.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:12 pm

Commissioner wrote:I think Corey Allen plays fine within the "team framework." Indeed, I think he is one of the best on the team at doing that, and probably doesn't shoot often enough. So I don't understand that comment. When Allen gets hot, he really should have the ball almost every possession. We should be doing more screens and set plays to get him open for shots, too, thinks me.

As for Triple J, I think the coaches have asked him to do too much. Triple J is a marginal high-major recruit--the kind of player who will have some high major offers but is nothing special for most high major teams, and not in big demand in the Big 10. But he's a real good catch for us and the kind of player we need to get back to where we can start to seriously compete again with MSU and UM for true Blue Chip recruits. He is a good player with the potential to be a real impact player in the Horizon, but he makes freshman mistakes. Rare is the freshman who can come in and take over the point on a full-time basis. Almost everyone on this board has agreed from day 1 that it is a surprise, and probably a mistake, to have him starting and playing so many minutes. Apparently our coaches don't see it that way. I think 15-20 minutes as a backup would be about right. But certainly nothing suggests that the coaches don't think he's playing within the "team framework."


All I mean is that Corey's illness has enabled Josh to earn the starting SG role until Corey proves otherwise. The same for Dre at PG due to JJJr's injury. How that works out each game is up to each player. It was not intended as a knock against either Corey or JJJr. Also, just because a player earns the start does not mean that they earn the majority of minutes in any game that they start. The last two games did establish some positives beyond just W's. Don't want to regress on those things just because a player is deemed "better." Both Corey and JJJr have started many games that we lost as closely as we fought UIC with the 5 ironmen who played hard for us last weekend. In the long run, that culture is more important than any one individual.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby udballer » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:24 pm

ptctitan wrote:
Commissioner wrote:All I mean is that Corey's illness has enabled Josh to earn the starting SG role until Corey proves otherwise. The same for Dre at PG due to JJJr's injury. How that works out each game is up to each player. It was not intended as a knock against either Corey or JJJr. Also, just because a player earns the start does not mean that they earn the majority of minutes in any game that they start. The last two games did establish some positives beyond just W's. Don't want to regress on those things just because a player is deemed "better."


But... the last two games weren't W's. It may have felt like a W because we only lost to a barely-.500 team, by 9, at home. And... in comparing Corey to Dre, Corey isn't just "deemed" better... He actually is light years better. ;)

To me, what the last two games showed was that we absolutely need an engaged Corey and Josh both on the floor if we want an actual shot at winning two games in a row. If Corey comes back healthy, it should be him at the 2, with Josh at PG. Nothing had changed on that front since the start of the year. Saying that Josh has earned the start "at the SG" because you've been lobbying against him at point all year is just silly. He should be on the court, with Corey. In that scenario, he's the obvious PG.

I paid special attention during the game on Friday and it reinforced my opinion that he is the #1 playmaker on this team with the ball in his hands. He appears to be the only guy on the team who can break down his man, drive to the hoop... and make a pass. Good bless Dre and JJJ but there is very little productive about pounding the ball back and forth at the top of the key, and then passing to a teammate who is also 30 feet from the basket. Josh tries to make things happen. That may lead to a silly turnover on occasion, but I'll take that along with the ability to score 25 any given night and take my chances.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby Big Chuck » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:19 pm

Motor City Sam wrote:Official attendance was 1113. I only watched the recording on DVR, but once again that seemed way off. Anyone who was there have an estimate on the actual crowd size?


I counted 57 people sitting upstairs at tipoff. More came afterwards, but not many. I think 400 may be a little high.

Worst crowd I ever seen in the 50+ years I have been attending.
No enthusiasm either.

I don't know the answers, but we are getting close to irrelevancy on the Detroit sports scene.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby ptctitan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:39 am

Enthusiasm starts with those who live in Detroit and can attend the games. Sit together and cheer for the team - even if you don't like the coach or the AD. Act like a bunch of crazy 19 year olds instead of a bunch would-be ESPN analysts looking to validate their opinions about the state of the program. If 10 people do it one game, 20 more may join the next game. The players have not quit. Why should the fans quit?

For those of us who live too far away to attend games on a regular basis, maybe it involves attending Motor City Madness and cheering the team to an improbable run like the Archie Tullos-led Titans made in 1987-88. Or throwing some extra dollars into the donation competition vs Oakland this week. Or just refraining from the over-the-top negativity here until the season ends in about 4 weeks.

Enthusiasm, and the lack thereof, starts with each of us.

udballer - disagree that last weekend was just one player. It was 5 players staying connected. That included Dre slowing Josh down when he became too aggressive. It was all 5 ironmen scoring double digits on Friday night. It was 18 assists on 25 baskets Friday night. It was a tired team showing Sunday that by sticking together, they could stay with a more athletic opponent even though they were all dead-tired. It was Josh, BTW, leading from the 2 position - not the PG. The slower Dre with 8 assists and 1 TO vs a more athletic Ottey. The team defense taking away UIC's inside game. Cole Long blocking more shots than Tai Odiase. All of these positives, including Josh's 30 points, resulted from those 5 guys playing the way the coaches want the whole team to play in every game. If Corey and JJJr will join that chemistry, then they will play significant minutes. And their athletic ability will enhance the quality of play for the rest of the season. My point is that they must earn their way back to significant minutes. None of us even had Dre in the debate at PG. It was Josh vs JJJr. Dre just taught those more athletically gifted players a lesson - if they choose to learn from it.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby udballer » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:36 am

ptctitan wrote:udballer - disagree that last weekend was just one player. It was 5 players staying connected.


Not sure who your are disagreeing with, exactly, but I'm positive that none of my posts attributed anything to a single player.

ptctitan wrote:That included Dre slowing Josh down when he became too aggressive.


What? I must have missed this... or maybe it's just something you made up?

ptctitan wrote:It was all 5 ironmen scoring double digits on Friday night. It was 18 assists on 25 baskets Friday night. It was a tired team showing Sunday that by sticking together, they could stay with a more athletic opponent even though they were all dead-tired. It was Josh, BTW, leading from the 2 position - not the PG. The slower Dre with 8 assists and 1 TO vs a more athletic Ottey. The team defense taking away UIC's inside game. Cole Long blocking more shots than Tai Odiase. All of these positives, including Josh's 30 points, resulted from those 5 guys playing the way the coaches want the whole team to play in every game.


I agree that we are looking for better teamwork, but you do realize that you are describing nearly a double-digit home loss to a team that is currently 14-11, right? Look, I didn't think we looked awful either and I've noted that the guys on the floor took some steps toward playing like a team. That said, I'm not sure we should be celebrating the fact that we didn't lose by more points than we did quite this emphatically. ;)

ptctitan wrote:If Corey and JJJr will join that chemistry, then they will play significant minutes. And their athletic ability will enhance the quality of play for the rest of the season. My point is that they must earn their way back to significant minutes.


I think you're confused a bit. You are not the coaching staff. It would be one thing to hear these words come out of BA's mouth... it's another when you post it on the message board. I don't think that there is any "if's" about it. I think JJJ and Corey will be back on the floor as soon as they are healthy. I don't think that BA is telling them that they have to "join the team chemistry" in order to get minutes again. As I stated, Corey needs to be on the floor when he's healthy for this team to have any chance to make any amount of noise from here on out. No sensible coaching staff is going to bench him for Dre on the strength of a 9 point home loss to the 3rd place team in the Horizon. If they do keep him on the bench for Dre, they're even worse than I thought.

ptctitan wrote:None of us even had Dre in the debate at PG. It was Josh vs JJJr. Dre just taught those more athletically gifted players a lesson - if they choose to learn from it.


Dre is still not in the debate at PG... or at least he shouldn't be. I agree that he IS a PG, but he is nowhere near a starting point guard. If the two guards in the game at any moment in time are Dre and Josh... by all means play him at PG, because he is not a SG in any way. He is what he is... a slow footed PG who has averaged 3.9 points and 1.9 assists over 56 career games in Detroit. I was not happy when we signed him... but he's won me over as a 3rd string PG. He deserves his scholarship and I hope he does well for himself when his playing career ends in about a month.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:22 pm

udballer wrote:
ptctitan wrote:udballer - disagree that last weekend was just one player. It was 5 players staying connected.


Not sure who your are disagreeing with, exactly, but I'm positive that none of my posts attributed anything to a single player.

ptctitan wrote:That included Dre slowing Josh down when he became too aggressive.


What? I must have missed this... or maybe it's just something you made up?

ptctitan wrote:It was all 5 ironmen scoring double digits on Friday night. It was 18 assists on 25 baskets Friday night. It was a tired team showing Sunday that by sticking together, they could stay with a more athletic opponent even though they were all dead-tired. It was Josh, BTW, leading from the 2 position - not the PG. The slower Dre with 8 assists and 1 TO vs a more athletic Ottey. The team defense taking away UIC's inside game. Cole Long blocking more shots than Tai Odiase. All of these positives, including Josh's 30 points, resulted from those 5 guys playing the way the coaches want the whole team to play in every game.


I agree that we are looking for better teamwork, but you do realize that you are describing nearly a double-digit home loss to a team that is currently 14-11, right? Look, I didn't think we looked awful either and I've noted that the guys on the floor took some steps toward playing like a team. That said, I'm not sure we should be celebrating the fact that we didn't lose by more points than we did quite this emphatically. ;)

ptctitan wrote:If Corey and JJJr will join that chemistry, then they will play significant minutes. And their athletic ability will enhance the quality of play for the rest of the season. My point is that they must earn their way back to significant minutes.


I think you're confused a bit. You are not the coaching staff. It would be one thing to hear these words come out of BA's mouth... it's another when you post it on the message board. I don't think that there is any "if's" about it. I think JJJ and Corey will be back on the floor as soon as they are healthy. I don't think that BA is telling them that they have to "join the team chemistry" in order to get minutes again. As I stated, Corey needs to be on the floor when he's healthy for this team to have any chance to make any amount of noise from here on out. No sensible coaching staff is going to bench him for Dre on the strength of a 9 point home loss to the 3rd place team in the Horizon. If they do keep him on the bench for Dre, they're even worse than I thought.

ptctitan wrote:None of us even had Dre in the debate at PG. It was Josh vs JJJr. Dre just taught those more athletically gifted players a lesson - if they choose to learn from it.


Dre is still not in the debate at PG... or at least he shouldn't be. I agree that he IS a PG, but he is nowhere near a starting point guard. If the two guards in the game at any moment in time are Dre and Josh... by all means play him at PG, because he is not a SG in any way. He is what he is... a slow footed PG who has averaged 3.9 points and 1.9 assists over 56 career games in Detroit. I was not happy when we signed him... but he's won me over as a 3rd string PG. He deserves his scholarship and I hope he does well for himself when his playing career ends in about a month.

I agree with baller on all of the above! On most good teams there is a tendency to keep going to the hot hand. On our present team there seems to be more of a "if he can do so should I so to hell with him and I'm going to go get mine". Not letting Josh continue when he was hot and forced was a mistake not a plus. It only made him force it more. Josh is a little guy with a huge heart. I'm not sure you can teach heart. I have loved watching him make a mistake and instead of hanging his head he goes right back and causes an opponent turn over. There is no quit in Josh. He is a winner and should be on the floor more.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby HSScout1 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:28 pm

Good point about Josh. A few times during the game he made a mistake (a turnover either passing or dribbling the ball, or taking an ill advised shot) and it just seemed like on the subsequent trip down the floor he then, in turn, made a steal or forced a turnover the other way. He's not perfect, but the effort and hustle was noticed and appreciated.
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Re: UIC Flames Preview and Game Thread

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:22 pm

HSScout1 wrote:Good point about Josh. A few times during the game he made a mistake (a turnover either passing or dribbling the ball, or taking an ill advised shot) and it just seemed like on the subsequent trip down the floor he then, in turn, made a steal or forced a turnover the other way. He's not perfect, but the effort and hustle was noticed and appreciated.


If you think back he has been doing that since he got to U of D. Just now the minute he makes an error he is pulled. Against UIC it didn't happen. I had a few great coaches thru the years and one used to stress that you can not second guess a players decision under pressure as you do not see things from the same angle and you are not under pressure and the time to coach is not during a game but at practice. If you do not pay attention during the test(game), you will not know what to work on at practice. Before this year I had never witnessed a coach trying to convince a referee of his coaching prowess.
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