Will the real UDM please stand up?

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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby DetroitBASKETBALL » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:07 pm

titanmike wrote:
DetroitBASKETBALL wrote:
ptctitan wrote:Good one Commissioner.

tacitus - as an older alumnus, I get angry when someone tells me, "Sorry to hear that your college closed." Because they see Detroit Mercy in the sports scores.


There will always be confusion Missouri State University, Montana State University, Michigan State University, Mississipi State University, Moscow State University.

MSU doesn't support athletics (Moscow State University)
MSU lost to South Dakota State last year in football ( Montana State University)

Yeah we are only one with naming issues, every school has issues, we just have a much bigger hurdle to overcome and if enough people continue to refer to us as UofD maybe we will go back, or maybe in some distant future not many alums from UofD and Mercy College are around and students call us UDM, Detroit Mercy or something else and the school has some opportunity to change that or keep the branding. At the end of the day it would be a slap in the face to the administrators and alums that graduated from Mercy College to wipe away their history, because the merger negotiations indicated it was supposed to be an equal institution supported both by Sisters of Mercy and Jesuits.


Slap in the face to Detroit Mercy grads? I don't think so. Is it a slap in the face of Mercy Grads to have Detroit in the name? If I were a betting man and a poll was taken of graduates of the three schools, University of Detroit/University of Detroit Mercy, Mercy...we all know who the winner would be.


It is a slap to the face to get rid of Mercy to Mercy College grads, it is as if the school never existed if we go back to UofD and it wasn't a merger but UofD taking over Mercy. I'm glad our institution is not betting but went and asked grads from Mercy College and Sisters of Mercy what they thought. You graduated from UofD and are biased in this. In my opinion UofD makes a lot of sense from marketing standpoint but lots of reasons it is not happening in the near future accept that your school does not exist, this is the University of Detroit Mercy! If it wasn't for Sisters of Mercy there wouldn't be a school at all.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby titanmike » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:07 am

Ok, lets pretend for a second that any of these Mercy grads are offended, (mother went in early 50's and she thinks the Detroit Mercy name is stupid) other than maybe you? You are glad our institution is not betting as you would be proven wrong with maybe the exception of Sisters of Mercy, but that isn't a school name. I don't at all diminish the assistance that the Sisters of Mercy gave to the University of Detroit from a financial perspective. I would certainly question the lack of foresight as far as the name is concerned. A solution still exists and is as relevant now as it was in 1990. Give the nursing school the tag of University of Detroit- Mercy School of Nursing, leave the rest University of Detroit.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Rogobob77 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:28 am

titanmike wrote:Ok, lets pretend for a second that any of these Mercy grads are offended, (mother went in early 50's and she thinks the Detroit Mercy name is stupid) other than maybe you? You are glad our institution is not betting as you would be proven wrong with maybe the exception of Sisters of Mercy, but that isn't a school name. I don't at all diminish the assistance that the Sisters of Mercy gave to the University of Detroit from a financial perspective. I would certainly question the lack of foresight as far as the name is concerned. A solution still exists and is as relevant now as it was in 1990. Give the nursing school the tag of University of Detroit- Mercy School of Nursing, leave the rest University of Detroit.

FWIW, that subdivision of the University is officially the “College of Health Professions & McAuley School of Nursing.” As I think most here know, Catherine McAuley founded the Sisters of Mercy order, in 1831.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:33 am

I’m confident that Davis will lead us to the dance within the next few years. I’m just as confident that the CBS Selection Show will put up a big “Detroit” on that 16 seed line. Maybe some of you are just fine with that, but it will mark the high tide of the rebrand fail.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby uofdfan1983 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:46 am

When you are proven correct, Tac, my only disappointment will be if we are a 16 seed.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby DetroitBASKETBALL » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:13 am

titanmike wrote:Ok, lets pretend for a second that any of these Mercy grads are offended, (mother went in early 50's and she thinks the Detroit Mercy name is stupid) other than maybe you? You are glad our institution is not betting as you would be proven wrong with maybe the exception of Sisters of Mercy, but that isn't a school name. I don't at all diminish the assistance that the Sisters of Mercy gave to the University of Detroit from a financial perspective. I would certainly question the lack of foresight as far as the name is concerned. A solution still exists and is as relevant now as it was in 1990. Give the nursing school the tag of University of Detroit- Mercy School of Nursing, leave the rest University of Detroit.


Just because you run a blog does not mean you have insight into what that report stated and why it was important at this juncture for school to stay University of Detroit Mercy. Your school does not exist it is a half of UofD and Mercy College, just like it would be inappropriate for Mercy alums or Sisters of Mercy to demand a change to Mercy College of Detroit and keep the Law School as the University of Detroit Law. Sisters of Mercy have equal stature in University of Detroit Mercy to the Jesuits, it is not being renamed no matter how many hissy fits you and your mother throw.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby titanmike » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:38 am

DetroitBASKETBALL wrote:
titanmike wrote:Ok, lets pretend for a second that any of these Mercy grads are offended, (mother went in early 50's and she thinks the Detroit Mercy name is stupid) other than maybe you? You are glad our institution is not betting as you would be proven wrong with maybe the exception of Sisters of Mercy, but that isn't a school name. I don't at all diminish the assistance that the Sisters of Mercy gave to the University of Detroit from a financial perspective. I would certainly question the lack of foresight as far as the name is concerned. A solution still exists and is as relevant now as it was in 1990. Give the nursing school the tag of University of Detroit- Mercy School of Nursing, leave the rest University of Detroit.


Just because you run a blog does not mean you have insight into what that report stated and why it was important at this juncture for school to stay University of Detroit Mercy. Your school does not exist it is a half of UofD and Mercy College, just like it would be inappropriate for Mercy alums or Sisters of Mercy to demand a change to Mercy College of Detroit and keep the Law School as the University of Detroit Law. Sisters of Mercy have equal stature in University of Detroit Mercy to the Jesuits, it is not being renamed no matter how many hissy fits you and your mother throw.


Whoa easy there good sir or madam. This isn't personal between us, lets not take it there. My mother is almost 87 and she doesn't throw hissy fits. She has been through quite enough in a lifetime. I never claimed particular insight, I gave my strong opinion, some based upon my own speculation and observation. Some based upon what I learn from people closer to the situation then I. I also know what I heard on the phone when the initial study was done that offered feedback from all sides. It wasn't the Mercy folks coming out on top.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby ptctitan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:42 am

As an alumnus who lives far away from Detroit, I continue to see the new brand fail because the short name used on the sports page does not convey to the public that Detroit Mercy is a merger of the Jesuit University of Detroit with the Sisters of Mercy run Mercy College of Detroit. This has little to do with the formal name of the university. It has a lot to do with the short name chosen by the PR people and approved by the school for our brand.

The first impression of many people who see or hear "Detroit Mercy" is not what the university intends to convey by that short name. I'm talking about people who have never lived in the Detroit area, the State of Michigan, or the Midwest. Their first impression is that the name refers to the Mercy institution that is located in Detroit. And that the word "Detroit" is identifying the location of the Mercy school as opposed to communicating the Jesuit half of the new institution.

Whatever the relative wisdom of the formal name of the school that was decided a few years ago, the current short form brand in athletics is not accurately conveying to a large percentage of the general population the message that the university wants conveyed to them. That ought to be fixed; and, it can be fixed without even revisiting the formal school name.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby StJoeUofD » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:13 am

Although I personally like titanmike's suggestion, this whole matter seems to me to be "much ado about nothing". Anyone who was a U of D fan that isn't a fan of Detroit Mercy probably wasn't a U of D fan in the first place. Anyone who wasn't a U of D fan and has just been introduced to Detroit Mercy doesn't care if our old name was University of Detroit or Mercy College.

I doubt any MSU fan is worried about their naming history.
February 12, 1855 Agricultural College of the State of Michigan
March 15, 1861 State Agricultural College
June 2, 1909 Michigan Agricultural College (M.A.C.)
May 13, 1925[5] Michigan State College of Agriculture and Applied Science (MSC)
July 1, 1955 Michigan State University of Agriculture and Applied Science (MSU)
January 1, 1964 Michigan State University (MSU)

People who follow the Titans will recognize Detroit, UDM or Detroit Mercy. People are playing against us or cheering for whomever is playing against us will forget our name the moment we beat them. All they care about is how good we are vis-a-vis their team. The TV guys only care whether our name is easy to pronounce.

In essence --- who really cares? If we win a lot of games, everyone will know who we are. If we lose a lot of games no one will care and we will spend our time of this forum debating the name and not how many games we are going to need to win to make it the Big Dance.

This is the only team we have.

These guys (and gals for our ladies team) are our team. We love them, we support them, we are sad when they lose and joyous when they win. Call them what you want, I just call them My Team.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby upbasketballfan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:26 am

titanmike wrote:
DetroitBASKETBALL wrote:
titanmike wrote:Ok, lets pretend for a second that any of these Mercy grads are offended, (mother went in early 50's and she thinks the Detroit Mercy name is stupid) other than maybe you? You are glad our institution is not betting as you would be proven wrong with maybe the exception of Sisters of Mercy, but that isn't a school name. I don't at all diminish the assistance that the Sisters of Mercy gave to the University of Detroit from a financial perspective. I would certainly question the lack of foresight as far as the name is concerned. A solution still exists and is as relevant now as it was in 1990. Give the nursing school the tag of University of Detroit- Mercy School of Nursing, leave the rest University of Detroit.


Just because you run a blog does not mean you have insight into what that report stated and why it was important at this juncture for school to stay University of Detroit Mercy. Your school does not exist it is a half of UofD and Mercy College, just like it would be inappropriate for Mercy alums or Sisters of Mercy to demand a change to Mercy College of Detroit and keep the Law School as the University of Detroit Law. Sisters of Mercy have equal stature in University of Detroit Mercy to the Jesuits, it is not being renamed no matter how many hissy fits you and your mother throw.


Whoa easy there good sir or madam. This isn't personal between us, lets not take it there. My mother is almost 87 and she doesn't throw hissy fits. She has been through quite enough in a lifetime. I never claimed particular insight, I gave my strong opinion, some based upon my own speculation and observation. Some based upon what I learn from people closer to the situation then I. I also know what I heard on the phone when the initial study was done that offered feedback from all sides. It wasn't the Mercy folks coming out on top.


As someone who is an Alum of neither I would be interested to see who is actually keeping this University afloat since the merger and was it a one time injection of help and then a free ride for eternity by Mercy. The people who I have met over the last 50+ years while attending events at your University describe themselves as U of D Alums I can not remember anyone telling me they are a product of UDM. I run into Mike quite often but have never met DetroitBASKETBALL who seems to be aggressively rude on this issue.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby NC Titan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:36 am

The College of Health Professions & McAuley School of Nursing is one of the profit centers for UDM. So Mercy College continues to provide funding for the university operations.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:41 am

As someone who attended two universities affiliated with the Sisters, I don’t buy the argument that going back to UD is a slap in the face to them. The Sisters run numerous schools without “Mercy” in the name (Carlow, Mount Aloysius, Trocaire, St. Joe’s, etc.). There are ways to honor the Sisters and thier legacy and change the name back. At the end of the day, the new name has caused nothing but problems and is clearly not catching on.

The debate will never end because a thread like this surfaces every few months and generally grows to a few pages.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Commissioner » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:52 am

Tacitus651 wrote:I’m confident that Davis will lead us to the dance within the next few years. I’m just as confident that the CBS Selection Show will put up a big “Detroit” on that 16 seed line. Maybe some of you are just fine with that, but it will mark the high tide of the rebrand fail.

I don't have emotional interest in this. I didn't graduate from Detroit, or Mercy, or Detroit-Mercy.

Let's be honest. The Mercy name is a drag on athletics. University employees may have to follow orders (though obviously they don't always on this question), but all of us should always refer to the team as Detroit, UofD, or UD, encourage others to do so, and state as much to the administration and board if we have those opportunities. Having the "rebrand" be a failure is a better option than having it be a success.

Comparisons to MSU are not apt. Michigan State has been "Michigan State" since 1925. The rest are just minor appendages (as it would be to have the official name of the University be Detroit-Mercy Catholic University while the vernacular is "Detroit.") "MSU" flows naturally from the high name recognition of "Michigan State," as "UofD" flowed and flows naturally from the name recognition of "University of Detroit." Mercy? UDM? That name recognition isn't there.

Everyone with half a brain knows this is hurting the school-at least its athletic teams. I don't think in all the debates I've watched in nearly a decade on this board I've seen anyone defend Detroit-Mercy or UDM as actually a better name. Rather, it's always "well, the Sisters bailed us out, it's their perogative," or "it is what it is get over it" or "Mercy grads may be offended" or Tacitus's "a rebrand failure is bad" even if the rebrand is worse. But never "UDM is a name that benefits the University and its athletic teams." (Note, you could have the University be Detroit Mercy but call athletic teams simply Detroit, a la SUNY-Buffalo teams are just "Buffalo," Wisconsin-Milwaukee teams are just "Milwaukee," etc.) But UDM doesn't work.

I understand the sisters want the recognition and credit. But as Ronald Reagan used to say, "There is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit." That's why it didn't bother him much if people called him a dunce or a figurehead. He wanted results (and he largely got them, at least on his terms and by his definitions). Sisters--Grow up. Do what's best for the University, and that will, in the long run, be best for the Order.

I'll tell you who is the one guy who could settle this--though not yet and maybe never: Mike Davis. I presume he's calling us "Detroit," given what the recruits are tweeting and how I've heard him talk. If we make 4 NCAAs between 2020 and 2025 and reach a Sweet 16, and draw 4500 a game, if he calls us Detroit, it will be Detroit.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby upbasketballfan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:13 am

Commissioner wrote:
Tacitus651 wrote:I’m confident that Davis will lead us to the dance within the next few years. I’m just as confident that the CBS Selection Show will put up a big “Detroit” on that 16 seed line. Maybe some of you are just fine with that, but it will mark the high tide of the rebrand fail.

I don't have emotional interest in this. I didn't graduate from Detroit, or Mercy, or Detroit-Mercy.

Let's be honest. The Mercy name is a drag on athletics. University employees may have to follow orders (though obviously they don't always on this question), but all of us should always refer to the team as Detroit, UofD, or UD, encourage others to do so, and state as much to the administration and board if we have those opportunities. Having the "rebrand" be a failure is a better option than having it be a success.

Comparisons to MSU are not apt. Michigan State has been "Michigan State" since 1925. The rest are just minor appendages (as it would be to have the official name of the University be Detroit-Mercy Catholic University while the vernacular is "Detroit.") "MSU" flows naturally from the high name recognition of "Michigan State," as "UofD" flowed and flows naturally from the name recognition of "University of Detroit." Mercy? UDM? That name recognition isn't there.

Everyone with half a brain knows this is hurting the school-at least its athletic teams. I don't think in all the debates I've watched in nearly a decade on this board I've seen anyone defend Detroit-Mercy or UDM as actually a better name. Rather, it's always "well, the Sisters bailed us out, it's their perogative," or "it is what it is get over it" or "Mercy grads may be offended" or Tacitus's "a rebrand failure is bad" even if the rebrand is worse. But never "UDM is a name that benefits the University and its athletic teams." (Note, you could have the University be Detroit Mercy but call athletic teams simply Detroit, a la SUNY-Buffalo teams are just "Buffalo," Wisconsin-Milwaukee teams are just "Milwaukee," etc.) But UDM doesn't work.

I understand the sisters want the recognition and credit. But as Ronald Reagan used to say, "There is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit." That's why it didn't bother him much if people called him a dunce or a figurehead. He wanted results (and he largely got them, at least on his terms and by his definitions). Sisters--Grow up. Do what's best for the University, and that will, in the long run, be best for the Order.

I'll tell you who is the one guy who could settle this--though not yet and maybe never: Mike Davis. I presume he's calling us "Detroit," given what the recruits are tweeting and how I've heard him talk. If we make 4 NCAAs between 2020 and 2025 and reach a Sweet 16, and draw 4500 a game, if he calls us Detroit, it will be Detroit.


+1 Great points!
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Rogobob77 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:22 am

We’ve kind of been through this before, like in 1990 after the consolidation when the athletic teams were branded “Detroit Mercy” and “UDM.” In the mid-1999s it was formally switched to “Detroit.” I asked the AD at the time, Brad Kinsman, what motivated the change. He said Perry Watson communicated a compelling case that the UDM brand approach was detrimental to both recruiting and scheduling.

FWIW, several college teams have recently changed (shortened) their brand for referencing athletic teams to simply reflect and emphasize the city they are located in, e.g., Omaha, Green Bay, Milwaukee, etc.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:35 am

Right, but rebranding Athletics to “Detroit” wouldn’t fix the root of these problems. You’d just have more recruits tweeting they committed to The University of Detroit, and thus have media, fans, etc. perpetuate the mistake. That’s not good branding either, and it leads people to question if the athletic teams and university are one in the same. As to St. Joe’s argument that it really doesn’t matter if people are confused because we know who we are, I think that’s an embarrassingly low threshold for what most of us want/expect from the university.

I’m willing to bet that few, if any, recruits/media reporters mistakenly call those schools “University of Omaha/Green Bay/Milwaukee” - we have a branding issue that is unique to us. It’s not the same as MSU or those schools.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Commissioner » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:Right, but rebranding Athletics to “Detroit” wouldn’t fix the root of these problems. You’d just have more recruits tweeting they committed to The University of Detroit, and thus have media, fans, etc. perpetuate the mistake.

Huh? I thought that's what we'd want. What mistake would they be perpetuating? It's like "Michigan"/"University of Michigan." No mistake, no confusion, good clear name.

That’s not good branding either, and it leads people to question if the athletic teams and university are one in the same.

Nah. Again: Michigan... University of Michigan... oh I'm so confused! Here if you're referring to just calling the teams "Detroit" while the University stays Detroit-Mercy, there's no confusion. Schools use that type of contraction for athletic teams to their advantage, just as Milwaukee and Green Bay are "Milwaukee" and "Green Bay" to sports fans, and University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee/at Green Bay to students who get degrees. But sure, my preference would just be to change the name.

As to St. Joe’s argument that it really doesn’t matter if people are confused because we know who we are, I think that’s an embarrassingly low threshold for what most of us want/expect from the university.

Agree. That's why we should use the good, logical name, and better recognized name: "Detroit" and/or "University of Detroit."

I’m willing to bet that few, if any, recruits/media reporters mistakenly call those schools “University of Omaha/Green Bay/Milwaukee” - we have a branding issue that is unique to us. It’s not the same as MSU or those schools.

Exactly. But calling us University of Detroit would not be mistaken, nor would calling us Detroit. What you're suggesting is that calling them Omaha, Green Bay, or Milwaukee is a mistake, but it's not--it's what they prefer. For each of those (and many other schools) the move away from University of State-City has gone quite well, though periodically they are referred to in that way.

Again, make a case that Detroit-Mercy is a better name for the University or its athletics. 'Cause I'm still not even hearing that attempted. And it one can't even make such a case, why would you want to keep that name for your teams?
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:32 pm

I’m clearly not attempting to argue that Detroit Mercy is a better name for the university itself. I don’t think any alum, young or old would suggest that honestly. I am suggesting that athletics should conform to Detroit Mercy so long as the name of the school is such out of pure consistency.

I am suggesting that the school itself go back to UD. That’s nothing new. I think we should demand to see the exact results from the survey.

Sorry, but I’m not buying the argument that referring to us as Detroit is akin to U of Michigan being called Michigan. It’s different for massive Flagships. And, it’s not similar because in the Michigan example they’re not dropping another word altogether. A better example would be if someone referred to UM-Flint as Michigan, which would be incorrect and confusing.
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Tacitus651 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:35 pm

I’ll add, there are only two scenarios where this is ever firmly resolved:

1) The University reverts back to UD
2) We win a MBB National Championship as Detroit Mercy and it finally catches on
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Re: Will the real UDM please stand up?

Postby Commissioner » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:52 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:I’m clearly not attempting to argue that Detroit Mercy is a better name for the university itself. I don’t think any alum, young or old would suggest that honestly. I am suggesting that athletics should conform to Detroit Mercy so long as the name of the school is such out of pure consistency.


In other words, having made a mistake, by god we should double down on it!
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