Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

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Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby uofdfan1983 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:14 pm

Last year at this team our team was imploding and morale was horrible on the team and on this board. We all loved what Hogan brought to the team and it really hurt (him more than us) not to be able to finish out a really good career by playing the second half of his senior season (on a team that needed size and an interior presence). It was more than the fact he played out-of-shape the first term. We got into a heated dialogue on this board over who to "blame" for his academic failure. Ultimately, after much argument, we placed most of our "blame" on Hogan himself. But many burned Bacari at the stake for Jaleel's academic shortcomings in the first term. Jaleel was always on the edge of academic eligibility throughout his career, and I argued that if you want to "blame" anyone you should blame Ray SR for recruiting him, knowing that his academics were an issue. But I also feel that if someone grows up and leaves college more mature than when he entered, then the process was worthwhile. I think that's the case with Jaleel. I saw at the Wrong State Game and he was smiling and very willing to talk, as we did for a few minutes. He was leaving for Mexico the next day to play in their top league, he said.

But I also know that Bacari greatly values academics, and he should not receive the "blame" for what happened.

Now we have Hamrick. Very little has been mentioned about his ineligibilty here. Nothing official (again) has been mentioned, so we only have the tidbits we here around Calihan. It is an academic issue, and he may be back this term, I hear. Anyone hear more details than this? None of you seem to even discuss his absence, let alone the reason for it, or it's impact on the team. Regardless, we heard the same rumors last year as we are hearing now; that Jaleel was on the bench because he might make it back before the season ended, by finishing an INCOMPLETE. Might be a similar case here, as Hamrick is also on the bench, but not dressed?

Regardless, the circumstances are now very different:
1) the team is winning
2) the team is together, playing hard
3) the coach can walk on water
4) Hamrick is a role player, and new to the team, so none of us have become "invested" in him, and most of us haven't seen him enough to "fall in love with him" as we did Jaleel
5) we are 2-0 since he went out
6) Brandon and Moore have picked up much of his slack as a hard-working, defensive and rebounding-minded role player; and Coach Davis has brought in a some athletes and they are stepping up in his absence

Ultimately, I think that Davis has done a really good job of getting "buy in" from a late-recruited class. Losing one (maybe only temporarily) to academics out of this huge new class is a good early result on academic success. He couldn't have had the chance to investigate their academics as deeply as a coach could under normal circumstances, when you are recruiting an average of 3-5 players for a new annual recruiting class and have several months/years to go through that progress of evaluation, including academic evaluation.

I will just say that people here were dumping on Bacari because he was an easy target. Academic failure happens. Less here than elsewhere, thank God.

Go Titans!
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby upbasketballfan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:55 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:Last year at this team our team was imploding and morale was horrible on the team and on this board. We all loved what Hogan brought to the team and it really hurt (him more than us) not to be able to finish out a really good career by playing the second half of his senior season (on a team that needed size and an interior presence). It was more than the fact he played out-of-shape the first term. We got into a heated dialogue on this board over who to "blame" for his academic failure. Ultimately, after much argument, we placed most of our "blame" on Hogan himself. But many burned Bacari at the stake for Jaleel's academic shortcomings in the first term. Jaleel was always on the edge of academic eligibility throughout his career, and I argued that if you want to "blame" anyone you should blame Ray SR for recruiting him, knowing that his academics were an issue. But I also feel that if someone grows up and leaves college more mature than when he entered, then the process was worthwhile. I think that's the case with Jaleel. I saw at the Wrong State Game and he was smiling and very willing to talk, as we did for a few minutes. He was leaving for Mexico the next day to play in their top league, he said.

But I also know that Bacari greatly values academics, and he should not receive the "blame" for what happened.

Now we have Hamrick. Very little has been mentioned about his ineligibilty here. Nothing official (again) has been mentioned, so we only have the tidbits we here around Calihan. It is an academic issue, and he may be back this term, I hear. Anyone hear more details than this? None of you seem to even discuss his absence, let alone the reason for it, or it's impact on the team. Regardless, we heard the same rumors last year as we are hearing now; that Jaleel was on the bench because he might make it back before the season ended, by finishing an INCOMPLETE. Might be a similar case here, as Hamrick is also on the bench, but not dressed?

Regardless, the circumstances are now very different:
1) the team is winning
2) the team is together, playing hard
3) the coach can walk on water
4) Hamrick is a role player, and new to the team, so none of us have become "invested" in him, and most of us haven't seen him enough to "fall in love with him" as we did Jaleel
5) we are 2-0 since he went out
6) Brandon and Moore have picked up much of his slack as a hard-working, defensive and rebounding-minded role player; and Coach Davis has brought in a some athletes and they are stepping up in his absence

Ultimately, I think that Davis has done a really good job of getting "buy in" from a late-recruited class. Losing one (maybe only temporarily) to academics out of this huge new class is a good early result on academic success. He couldn't have had the chance to investigate their academics as deeply as a coach could under normal circumstances, when you are recruiting an average of 3-5 players for a new annual recruiting class and have several months/years to go through that progress of evaluation, including academic evaluation.

I will just say that people here were dumping on Bacari because he was an easy target. Academic failure happens. Less here than elsewhere, thank God.

Go Titans!


Academic failure happens more here than elsewhere. I was one who spoke up strongly against the hiring of Bacari. I called him a clown before he got the job and after he proved me correct. I was down on Vowels when he took to long to hire a BA replacement nd favored JJ. but on this one I was wrong vowels did a great job coming up with Davis. He is gratious and polite and regardless what happens for the rest of this year he makes me proud to be a Titan Fan. On Thursday he was in my seat watching his team warm up and he had a smile which looked like a happy pleasant smile. I thanked him for taking the challenge and coming to Detroit. He said he was happy to be here. On Saturday in the stairway he thanked us for coming to the game. The players do not snap at him or speak back when he removes them from a game. I haven't seen this from our team since Perry left. The players seem to respect him and know he is in charge. The preceding coaches did not seem to have the respect of some of their players. I feel a good team is not a democracy but a dictatorship.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Commissioner » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:08 pm

Tom, I think people were harder on Bacari on the academic side for two related reasons:

First, one reason given for replacing Ray was the academic performance of the players. When guys starting having academic issues under Bacari, at least a few Bacari partisans were quick to ascribe blame to Ray. Quite naturally, then, people who wanted Ray to stay are going to say "wait a minute. These guys (mainly Foster-Smith and Jaleel, but also Grant) stayed eligible under Ray. Don't blame him for their failures now." As you note, it can be a complex issue, but I think oversimplification by some leads to oversimplification by others.

That's gets us to the second, tightly related reason. If one reason given for dismissing a coach is academics, one expects to see clear improvement under the new guy. That wasn't there. Beyond the three McCallum recruits who had issues, BA's recruit Tariq Jones couldn't make the grade.

I think you're right that there is no value in assigning "blame," but I think that's how many saw it. What was supposed to be a BA strength didn't seem like one, and blaming the prior coach for the issue was sure, given that the players had stayed eligible during his tenure, to spark a rebuttal from his supporters.

As for Davis, he's getting slack for a lot of reasons, and I think everyone recognized that he was really going to have to take some chances with players just to assemble a team this year. If our APR starts to near the trouble zone, I'm sure we'll hear more about it. But Davis's slack goes beyond the academic side. I'm mean, we're 8-10, and people talk like we're on the verge of a Top 25 ranking. If Ray or Bacari were 8-10, there'd be a lot more griping.

Personally, I think Davis merits the slack, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

Let's just enjoy being in 1st place, and hope that Hamrick is able to return this year. And Willie, too!
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Tacitus651 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:23 pm

“If Ray or Bacari were 8-10, there'd be a lot more griping.“

Probably true, but I’ll point out that both Ray and BA were playing a couple non D1 opponents to get a couple early wins on the books. If BA had any overall record but a 5-1 HL record, I actually firmly believe the fans would have rallied behind him. That never happened, and BA only got 4 HL wins last year.

I really don’t have much interest in last year's issues or shortcomings. Like I said then, Hogan’s academic issues might have been rooted in the challenges that inevitably come with upper level classes, or a course he knew he’d have difficulty with and delayed til his last year. The truth is, nearly every D1 basketball team is going to have an academic issue or close call every season. Being a D1 athlete is hard, and basketball cruelly spans two semesters. Plus, the travel is probably worse than any other sport.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby titanmac » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:27 pm

i havent’t heard anywhere that willie is an academic casualty:”. he was dressd yesterday. are you suggesting he is? yooper im with you. didn’t like the bacari hire from the get go.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Resurget Cineribus » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:16 pm

Willi wasn’t dressed yesterday’s due to his concussion. But in no way is he an academic issue either.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Commissioner » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:18 pm

titanmac wrote:i havent’t heard anywhere that willie is an academic casualty:”. he was dressd yesterday. are you suggesting he is? yooper im with you. didn’t like the bacari hire from the get go.

I did not mean to suggest that at all. Just hoping that he'd be back soon.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby uofdfan1983 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:36 pm

I didn't see Willie dressed or anywhere yesterday. Where was he? Only 2 white players I noticed were Long and the Sterling Heights walkon. I heard Willie might get clearance for Saturday's game. From the little bit I saw of him, it's great to have a big guy who can shoot but he is definitely slow/has heavy feet and might be a defensive liability. Right now I think we need interior defense and rebounding more than we need another shooter, and right now would select Blackshear, Curry and even Long over Willie at the 5 position. That is, provided that Josh and King continue shooting well enough to keep the pressure off Davis.

Having said that, I'm still glad Willie is a Titan and looking forward to his contributions and anxious to see him in action again.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby upbasketballfan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:39 pm

uofdfan1983 wrote:I didn't see Willie dressed or anywhere yesterday. Where was he? Only 2 white players I noticed were Long and the Sterling Heights walkon. I heard Willie might get clearance for Saturday's game. From the little bit I saw of him, it's great to have a big guy who can shoot but he is definitely slow/has heavy feet and might be a defensive liability. Right now I think we need interior defense and rebounding more than we need another shooter, and right now would select Blackshear, Curry and even Long over Willie at the 5 position. That is, provided that Josh and King continue shooting well enough to keep the pressure off Davis.

Having said that, I'm still glad Willie is a Titan and looking forward to his contributions and anxious to see him in action again.


Not sure what you were looking at but Willie is a player and for playing his first game mid season he looked really good.
We are fortunate he is a Titan. He will have a great career as a Titan.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:31 am

Even if Willie is cleared for the Oakland game, doubt he would play much if at all after not being able to practice with the team for several days. Hopefully we’ll see him get increasing minutes in the near future and then evolve into an X Factor for the Titans during the second half of the HL schedule.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby titanmac » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 am

must have mistaken the walkon for him? in any event, if he’s dressed he will play.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby ptctitan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:49 am

I agree with tacitus651 above.

The situation now is different. Last year was an interminable soap opera that I want to forget. Change for the better has been made; and, I embrace it and support it wholeheartedly.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby titanmike » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:06 am

upbasketballfan wrote:
uofdfan1983 wrote:Last year at this team our team was imploding and morale was horrible on the team and on this board. We all loved what Hogan brought to the team and it really hurt (him more than us) not to be able to finish out a really good career by playing the second half of his senior season (on a team that needed size and an interior presence). It was more than the fact he played out-of-shape the first term. We got into a heated dialogue on this board over who to "blame" for his academic failure. Ultimately, after much argument, we placed most of our "blame" on Hogan himself. But many burned Bacari at the stake for Jaleel's academic shortcomings in the first term. Jaleel was always on the edge of academic eligibility throughout his career, and I argued that if you want to "blame" anyone you should blame Ray SR for recruiting him, knowing that his academics were an issue. But I also feel that if someone grows up and leaves college more mature than when he entered, then the process was worthwhile. I think that's the case with Jaleel. I saw at the Wrong State Game and he was smiling and very willing to talk, as we did for a few minutes. He was leaving for Mexico the next day to play in their top league, he said.

But I also know that Bacari greatly values academics, and he should not receive the "blame" for what happened.

Now we have Hamrick. Very little has been mentioned about his ineligibilty here. Nothing official (again) has been mentioned, so we only have the tidbits we here around Calihan. It is an academic issue, and he may be back this term, I hear. Anyone hear more details than this? None of you seem to even discuss his absence, let alone the reason for it, or it's impact on the team. Regardless, we heard the same rumors last year as we are hearing now; that Jaleel was on the bench because he might make it back before the season ended, by finishing an INCOMPLETE. Might be a similar case here, as Hamrick is also on the bench, but not dressed?

Regardless, the circumstances are now very different:
1) the team is winning
2) the team is together, playing hard
3) the coach can walk on water
4) Hamrick is a role player, and new to the team, so none of us have become "invested" in him, and most of us haven't seen him enough to "fall in love with him" as we did Jaleel
5) we are 2-0 since he went out
6) Brandon and Moore have picked up much of his slack as a hard-working, defensive and rebounding-minded role player; and Coach Davis has brought in a some athletes and they are stepping up in his absence

Ultimately, I think that Davis has done a really good job of getting "buy in" from a late-recruited class. Losing one (maybe only temporarily) to academics out of this huge new class is a good early result on academic success. He couldn't have had the chance to investigate their academics as deeply as a coach could under normal circumstances, when you are recruiting an average of 3-5 players for a new annual recruiting class and have several months/years to go through that progress of evaluation, including academic evaluation.

I will just say that people here were dumping on Bacari because he was an easy target. Academic failure happens. Less here than elsewhere, thank God.

Go Titans!


Academic failure happens more here than elsewhere. I was one who spoke up strongly against the hiring of Bacari. I called him a clown before he got the job and after he proved me correct. I was down on Vowels when he took to long to hire a BA replacement nd favored JJ. but on this one I was wrong vowels did a great job coming up with Davis. He is gratious and polite and regardless what happens for the rest of this year he makes me proud to be a Titan Fan. On Thursday he was in my seat watching his team warm up and he had a smile which looked like a happy pleasant smile. I thanked him for taking the challenge and coming to Detroit. He said he was happy to be here. On Saturday in the stairway he thanked us for coming to the game. The players do not snap at him or speak back when he removes them from a game. I haven't seen this from our team since Perry left. The players seem to respect him and know he is in charge. The preceding coaches did not seem to have the respect of some of their players. I feel a good team is not a democracy but a dictatorship.


Academic failure happens more here than elsewhere? I would like to see the statistical data to back it up if you're going to make a claim like that. I also think calling BA a clown is pretty juvenile. Not going to rehash Bacari's tenure, but even with his exit from the coaching staff, he still wants what's best for the program and Coach Davis. I am certainly pleased with the results with Mike and I think he is fantastic, but really? His pleasant smile looked like a happy pleasant smile? Seems like that would be pretty logical.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby upbasketballfan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:58 pm

titanmike wrote:
upbasketballfan wrote:
uofdfan1983 wrote:Last year at this team our team was imploding and morale was horrible on the team and on this board. We all loved what Hogan brought to the team and it really hurt (him more than us) not to be able to finish out a really good career by playing the second half of his senior season (on a team that needed size and an interior presence). It was more than the fact he played out-of-shape the first term. We got into a heated dialogue on this board over who to "blame" for his academic failure. Ultimately, after much argument, we placed most of our "blame" on Hogan himself. But many burned Bacari at the stake for Jaleel's academic shortcomings in the first term. Jaleel was always on the edge of academic eligibility throughout his career, and I argued that if you want to "blame" anyone you should blame Ray SR for recruiting him, knowing that his academics were an issue. But I also feel that if someone grows up and leaves college more mature than when he entered, then the process was worthwhile. I think that's the case with Jaleel. I saw at the Wrong State Game and he was smiling and very willing to talk, as we did for a few minutes. He was leaving for Mexico the next day to play in their top league, he said.

But I also know that Bacari greatly values academics, and he should not receive the "blame" for what happened.

Now we have Hamrick. Very little has been mentioned about his ineligibilty here. Nothing official (again) has been mentioned, so we only have the tidbits we here around Calihan. It is an academic issue, and he may be back this term, I hear. Anyone hear more details than this? None of you seem to even discuss his absence, let alone the reason for it, or it's impact on the team. Regardless, we heard the same rumors last year as we are hearing now; that Jaleel was on the bench because he might make it back before the season ended, by finishing an INCOMPLETE. Might be a similar case here, as Hamrick is also on the bench, but not dressed?

Regardless, the circumstances are now very different:
1) the team is winning
2) the team is together, playing hard
3) the coach can walk on water
4) Hamrick is a role player, and new to the team, so none of us have become "invested" in him, and most of us haven't seen him enough to "fall in love with him" as we did Jaleel
5) we are 2-0 since he went out
6) Brandon and Moore have picked up much of his slack as a hard-working, defensive and rebounding-minded role player; and Coach Davis has brought in a some athletes and they are stepping up in his absence

Ultimately, I think that Davis has done a really good job of getting "buy in" from a late-recruited class. Losing one (maybe only temporarily) to academics out of this huge new class is a good early result on academic success. He couldn't have had the chance to investigate their academics as deeply as a coach could under normal circumstances, when you are recruiting an average of 3-5 players for a new annual recruiting class and have several months/years to go through that progress of evaluation, including academic evaluation.

I will just say that people here were dumping on Bacari because he was an easy target. Academic failure happens. Less here than elsewhere, thank God.

Go Titans!


Academic failure happens more here than elsewhere. I was one who spoke up strongly against the hiring of Bacari. I called him a clown before he got the job and after he proved me correct. I was down on Vowels when he took to long to hire a BA replacement nd favored JJ. but on this one I was wrong vowels did a great job coming up with Davis. He is gratious and polite and regardless what happens for the rest of this year he makes me proud to be a Titan Fan. On Thursday he was in my seat watching his team warm up and he had a smile which looked like a happy pleasant smile. I thanked him for taking the challenge and coming to Detroit. He said he was happy to be here. On Saturday in the stairway he thanked us for coming to the game. The players do not snap at him or speak back when he removes them from a game. I haven't seen this from our team since Perry left. The players seem to respect him and know he is in charge. The preceding coaches did not seem to have the respect of some of their players. I feel a good team is not a democracy but a dictatorship.


Academic failure happens more here than elsewhere? I would like to see the statistical data to back it up if you're going to make a claim like that. I also think calling BA a clown is pretty juvenile. Not going to rehash Bacari's tenure, but even with his exit from the coaching staff, he still wants what's best for the program and Coach Davis. I am certainly pleased with the results with Mike and I think he is fantastic, but really? His pleasant smile looked like a happy pleasant smile? Seems like that would be pretty logical.


I tried to find some statistical data to back up my perception that UD has been tougher place to stay eligible but to this point I haven't found any stats to or fro to back my statement. I will look some more when I have time. I had 253 teammates in a four year span and only remember 3 being lost to grades. I think losing 16% to grades over the last 3 yrs. has to be on the high side and that is not counting Bass. As for BA when a lot of people on this board started talking up BA I started to watch him closely in UM's games to watch his contributions. In Chatman,which I saw as one of BA's problems, he should have known exactly what he was getting into. In business you are responsible for your decisions and the actions of the people you hire. As for the term clown that I used . He played with the globetrotters and they are basketball clowns also one of Webster's definitions of clown is a person who habitually jokes and plays the buffoon.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby titanmike » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:16 pm

I certainly think Detroit is a tougher place to stay eligible, but I don't know that you can statistically say that we have had more ineligible than the next. As for the Globetrotters, very skilled basketball players despite your reference to them as clowns. No one uses the clown comment in that manner unless intended as insult.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Tacitus651 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:29 pm

We’ve been through this in years past when Bass and others had problems.

The fact is, eligibility is different at schools for different reasons. I’d argue that having a small number of athletes be deemed ineligible from time to time is just a sign that the school demands academic excellence and also does not give free passes to athletes. Does anyone seriously believe that staying academically eligible at Southern Illinois Univerity is the same as staying eligible at Harvard? Of course not. The general rigor and demands of an institution are the first variable. Next, some schools that are quite good academically lose their way and offer fluff majors or participate in downright fraud. North Carolina had bogus classes that helped student athletes get credits for African Studies where students received credit for what was deemed by most as 7th grade writing.

You have a basketball roster of about 14 guys, some of whom would not be admitted to UDM if not for their basketball ability. Then you have them play a sport from November - February (possibly March) with all the required practice and travel. Players are going to have academic issues from time to time.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby HoopLove247 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:11 pm

Looks like all the eligibility rumors were false with regards to Hamrick. He entered the game late in the first half. Possible injury would be my guess. Let's go titans
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby uofdfan1983 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:03 pm

Not exactly. It is possible to be borderline and then do something to improve your final grade. Give the kid credit. He stuck with the program, did what he needed to do, and is back on the court.
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby HoopLove247 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:20 pm

What would lead you to think he needed to do anything. I disagree with that thought process give him credit for what. Possibly being Injured. Let's not tarnish the young man for no reason. What if there never was a issue just speculation and rumor.??
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Re: Hamrick and Hogan, same issue, different circumstances

Postby Resurget Cineribus » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:42 pm

HoopLove247 wrote:What would lead you to think he needed to do anything. I disagree with that thought process give him credit for what. Possibly being Injured. Let's not tarnish the young man for no reason. What if there never was a issue just speculation and rumor.??


+1
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