Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:42 am

Great summary by Commissioner. We’re not moving anytime soon so we should all accept that we will spend the roaring 20s in the Horizon League. Not that I’m opposed to people voicing concerns or sharing their desire to leave on the message board. That’s what message boards are for. But, let’s face it. All most of us can do is show up for games when we can, bring friends to the games, give a few bucks to the program here and there, and maybe show support on social media. I really just want this post-season ban appeal to work and get back to watching basketball.

If anything, we should be glad PFW is in the Horizon. As noted, it gives us another conference game during a time when games are harder to come by. Given the proximity to Detroit, we benefit more than many HL schools.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:26 pm

I realize doing the undoable is not for everyone or everything but when you do test your presumed limits and succeed it is a fantastic feeling. The Metro Detroit Area isn't what it used to be is not a crutch I care to lean on. Metro Detroit is the home to 17 Fortune 500 companies and is the 12th largest Metropolitan area in the US so it is a good market and a plus. I realize we have painted ourselves into a corner and that is not the doings of the present administration but I think the longer we stay and say we can't leave, the harder it will be to leave. Some conferences are headed up but the Horizon is on the elevator on the way down. I feel it is better to get off on the 1st or 2nd floor rather than go down to the subterranean levels. I know that nothing I say will change opinions on here and no one will change my feeling that we are bleeding out and a few Band Aids are the solution. Trying to help in every way possible is something I presume we are all doing within our comfort levels.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Tacitus651 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Some people speculate that the P5 conferences will evolve to all have 16 members each. Not sure that’s true. But, if it did happen, it would be interesting to see if the smaller conferences tried to mirror that and also expand to 16. In which case, we’d probably be attractive to MVC or A-10. However, my guess is the smaller conferences wouldn’t expand to 16 because of the travel, and each school would seriously diminish its odds of a NCAA tourney appearance. Not to mention that football further complicates things.

If we don’t want to be the only private school in the HL then maybe we should advocate for Belmont, Bellarmine, or other private schools to join. If you can’t move to a better neighborhood then fix the one you’re in.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:24 pm

Tacitus651 wrote:Some people speculate that the P5 conferences will evolve to all have 16 members each. Not sure that’s true. But, if it did happen, it would be interesting to see if the smaller conferences tried to mirror that and also expand to 16. In which case, we’d probably be attractive to MVC or A-10. However, my guess is the smaller conferences wouldn’t expand to 16 because of the travel, and each school would seriously diminish its odds of a NCAA tourney appearance. Not to mention that football further complicates things.

If we don’t want to be the only private school in the HL then maybe we should advocate for Belmont, Bellarmine, or other private schools to join. If you can’t move to a better neighborhood then fix the one you’re in.

Your post suggests why a modicum of patience is in order, as a hasty plan to leave the Horizon for say the Ohio Valley or other lower-rated conference (“just about anywhere is better than where we are”) would be potentially disastrous. Moving to a different conference is a million dollar proposition, not something a University does every couple of years. What if Detroit Mercy commits to such a jump in 2020, and then the next year a couple shifts in the college landscape cause the MVC and/or A-10 to be looking for multiple additions? How happy would the we-must-leave-the-Horizon-ASAP advocates be about being locked in a low-major conference for a new decade when a much better alternative was just around the corner?

(I say the above acknowledging that the Titan program has made major missteps by being overly cautious in the past when opportunity was right there to be seized. I believe Detroit could have moved to the A-10 in 1995 along with Xavier, but the University was unwilling to make the financial commitment at the time.)
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Commissioner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Rogobob77 wrote:
Tacitus651 wrote:Some people speculate that the P5 conferences will evolve to all have 16 members each. Not sure that’s true. But, if it did happen, it would be interesting to see if the smaller conferences tried to mirror that and also expand to 16. In which case, we’d probably be attractive to MVC or A-10. However, my guess is the smaller conferences wouldn’t expand to 16 because of the travel, and each school would seriously diminish its odds of a NCAA tourney appearance. Not to mention that football further complicates things.

If we don’t want to be the only private school in the HL then maybe we should advocate for Belmont, Bellarmine, or other private schools to join. If you can’t move to a better neighborhood then fix the one you’re in.

Your post suggests why a modicum of patience is in order, as a hasty plan to leave the Horizon for say the Ohio Valley or other lower-rated conference (“just about anywhere is better than where we are”) would be potentially disastrous. Moving to a different conference is a million dollar proposition, not something a University does every couple of years. What if Detroit Mercy commits to such a jump in 2020, and then the next year a couple shifts in the college landscape cause the MVC and/or A-10 to be looking for multiple additions? How happy would the we-must-leave-the-Horizon-ASAP advocates be about being locked in a low-major conference for a new decade when a much better alternative was just around the corner?

(I say the above acknowledging that the Titan program has made major missteps by being overly cautious in the past when opportunity was right there to be seized. I believe Detroit could have moved to the A-10 in 1995 along with Xavier, but the University was unwilling to make the financial commitment at the time.)

I also suspect we could have gotten into the Great Midwest in 1990/91, with DePaul, Dayton, and others (that became the core of CUSA a few years later; CUSA has been decimated in the last decade but remains a better conference than the Horizon), and possibly the MVC around 2000.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby titanmike » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:27 am

I would love to have the board one board in one conference
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:24 am

We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D. Think of all the $ we could save and the risks we could eliminate and in the long run it is a better place than the Horizon.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Rogobob77 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:38 am

upbasketballfan wrote:We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D. Think of all the $ we could save and the risks we could eliminate and in the long run it is a better place than the Horizon.

Nobody is saying the program shouldn’t spend more money, the consensus view from posters in this thread is to spend it wisely so we might attract legitimate interest from a better conference realistically within stretch reach like the A-10. That sure makes a lot more sense than say incurring millions in transition expenses to join the inferior Ohio Valley (something you advocated a mere 48 hours ago) if that offers an immediate ticket out of the Horizon. And I really don’t understand how spending major money upfront to join a lower-rated far-flung conference (which require significantly higher travel expenses each year) like the OVC or private-institution constituted MAAC is going to help us “make money.” Those are perpetual one-bid conferences, so won’t bring greater tournament revenue. Does anyone think that teams like UI-Edwardsville or Marist will draw more fans to Calihan than the current Horizon lineup?
Last edited by Rogobob77 on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:30 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Rogobob77 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:41 am

Horizon Roundtable article on Purdue Fort Wayne joining the Horizon:

https://horizoneroundtable.com/2019/08/ ... on-league/
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby ptctitan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:42 am

upbasketballfan wrote:We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D.


upbbfan - the formerly unduly tight spending attitude is changing in the front office of the university. We need that change of attitude to be encouraged - not discouraged - at this time. Every time the school President made a public appearance, he was asked about the men's BB team and Antoine Davis. Other Jesuit universities have supplied evidence about higher application rates after the men's BB team does well. A lot of this results from the fact that the university itself is on a more sound financial footing. So, they feel less constrained about undertaking more capital projects when those projects can drive higher enrollment. As fans, we should encourage this new way of thinking even if we are unable to add a major gift to such a fundraising effort. Even if every poster here pledged an extra $100 or $500 to such an effort, it would send a message and make it easier for the university to persuade larger donors to come forward in a manner similar to the way we got the lights for our outdoor field.

We have a window of opportunity here. There is a specific way forward for us. It isn't easy; but now is the time to make the effort. Then, we will regain control of our options for conferences, improved facilities, post-season play, some good home games or games at LCA; etc, etc. A flagship men's BB program that restores our pride in our university in a very public way.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby NC Titan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:48 am

upbasketballfan wrote:We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D. Think of all the $ we could save and the risks we could eliminate and in the long run it is a better place than the Horizon.


Two comments:

I think the prevalent thinking is that you have to have money to spend money to make money. Plunking down millions to improve and move to another conference first requires having millions to plunk down, and the school has many urgent needs along with Athletics. My observations have been that one of two things has to happen: a major donor has to fund this (think Phil Knight and what he did for Oregon's athletics) or a handful of donors have to band together to pledge the money (millions) and approach to school to fund specific desires. UofD / UDM has never been a rich institution, back from the days when the Jesuits moved to Six Mile on borrowed money, and I've never seen any alumni initiative to make major improvements. New buildings are few and far between and generally funded by foundations not alumni. I don't know if there is an appetite or a desire to raise $20 million or so to upgrade athletics and pay for the move to the A10 or another conference.

Second, what is MAIA?
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:58 am

NC Titan wrote:
upbasketballfan wrote:We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D. Think of all the $ we could save and the risks we could eliminate and in the long run it is a better place than the Horizon.


Two comments:

I think the prevalent thinking is that you have to have money to spend money to make money. Plunking down millions to improve and move to another conference first requires having millions to plunk down, and the school has many urgent needs along with Athletics. My observations have been that one of two things has to happen: a major donor has to fund this (think Phil Knight and what he did for Oregon's athletics) or a handful of donors have to band together to pledge the money (millions) and approach to school to fund specific desires. UofD / UDM has never been a rich institution, back from the days when the Jesuits moved to Six Mile on borrowed money, and I've never seen any alumni initiative to make major improvements. New buildings are few and far between and generally funded by foundations not alumni. I don't know if there is an appetite or a desire to raise $20 million or so to upgrade athletics and pay for the move to the A10 or another conference.

Second, what is MAIA?


It was a miss hit. MIAA
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:14 pm

upbasketballfan wrote:
NC Titan wrote:
upbasketballfan wrote:We have mentioned on here quite a lot about being with other similar private institutions and costs being a huge factor. The you have to spend money to make money attitude does not seem to be very prevalent. The feeling I get from this discussion is that the perfect fit for Detroit Mercy is the MAIA. It fits every need expressed above except that we might be required to field a football or baseball team. I think you will find it checks every box for the new Detroit Mercy. It probably wouldn't work for the old U of D. Think of all the $ we could save and the risks we could eliminate and in the long run it is a better place than the Horizon.


Two comments:

I think the prevalent thinking is that you have to have money to spend money to make money. Plunking down millions to improve and move to another conference first requires having millions to plunk down, and the school has many urgent needs along with Athletics. My observations have been that one of two things has to happen: a major donor has to fund this (think Phil Knight and what he did for Oregon's athletics) or a handful of donors have to band together to pledge the money (millions) and approach to school to fund specific desires. UofD / UDM has never been a rich institution, back from the days when the Jesuits moved to Six Mile on borrowed money, and I've never seen any alumni initiative to make major improvements. New buildings are few and far between and generally funded by foundations not alumni. I don't know if there is an appetite or a desire to raise $20 million or so to upgrade athletics and pay for the move to the A10 or another conference.

Second, what is MAIA?


It was a miss hit.(MIAA) From what I'm understanding on here it sounds like a perfect fit. We could take all the $ we are saving and put it into the facilities and endowment and in my opinion you will have as good an opportunity to reload as in the Horizon. I would almost bet that the MIAA will be around and remain stable long after the Horizon is gone.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Commissioner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Up, you seem to think that others are defeatists. But aren't you playing the defeatist? I realize you're being sarcastic with the MIAA stuff, but doesn't that reflect a defeatist attitude? You say join the OVC, and when it's pointed out that that would be crazy, would be worse than the Horizon, you carp "well then why not the MIAA?" You suggest we try to get into the A10 or MVC, but when others respond, "OK, here is what we have to do to move forward and make that a realistic possibility," you carp "well, why not just join the MIAA then?"

You're like the best fan a university could have. You drive hundreds of miles to see *home* games. You care deeply about the team. You're fed up with lack of vision, which has been a real problem (that's how you go from a team that--though hardly a blue blood--could expect to be nationally ranked in good years, crank out the occasional 1st/2nd/or 3rd team All-American, host Notre Dame, Indiana, and Villanova, had Marquette as the top rival, etc., to where we are now), but let's remain constructive. The first step to make dreams come real is to dream. I think everyone on this board does that. Other fans around the league make fun of us for it. But the second step in making dreams come real is to face reality. Only then are you doing more than hoping that lightning strikes.

Admittedly, it would help if the University were more forthcoming with a plan. But they are under some tough constraints as well. I don't know enough to know if we need a different team at the top. But Vowels pulled one out of the hat, I think, with Coach Davis, and Garibaldi seems committed and seems to be making progress in a tough job.

There is not a person on this board (I think) who wouldn't want to be in MVC or A10. But we can't make them invite us. And I don't think you get there by joining the OVC. And if the University were really giving up, it probably would be aiming for the MAAC. That it's not is a good sign, not a bad one.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Commissioner wrote:Up, you seem to think that others are defeatists. But aren't you playing the defeatist? I realize you're being sarcastic with the MIAA stuff, but doesn't that reflect a defeatist attitude? You say join the OVC, and when it's pointed out that that would be crazy, would be worse than the Horizon, you carp "well then why not the MIAA?" You suggest we try to get into the A10 or MVC, but when others respond, "OK, here is what we have to do to move forward and make that a realistic possibility," you carp "well, why not just join the MIAA then?"

You're like the best fan a university could have. You drive hundreds of miles to see *home* games. You care deeply about the team. You're fed up with lack of vision, which has been a real problem (that's how you go from a team that--though hardly a blue blood--could expect to be nationally ranked in good years, crank out the occasional 1st/2nd/or 3rd team All-American, host Notre Dame, Indiana, and Villanova, had Marquette as the top rival, etc., to where we are now), but let's remain constructive. The first step to make dreams come real is to dream. I think everyone on this board does that. Other fans around the league make fun of us for it. But the second step in making dreams come real is to face reality. Only then are you doing more than hoping that lightning strikes.

Admittedly, it would help if the University were more forthcoming with a plan. But they are under some tough constraints as well. I don't know enough to know if we need a different team at the top. But Vowels pulled one out of the hat, I think, with Coach Davis, and Garibaldi seems committed and seems to be making progress in a tough job.

There is not a person on this board (I think) who wouldn't want to be in MVC or A10. But we can't make them invite us. And I don't think you get there by joining the OVC. And if the University were really giving up, it probably would be aiming for the MAAC. That it's not is a good sign, not a bad one.


Commish I have been listening to what they are saying and the schools in the MIAA are the perfect fit to what they want. Very little travel,stabile, private faith based, excellent educational institutions, similar sized undergrad enrollments , etc. They have strong endowments and a couple like Hope and Calvin would not be push overs. There actually isn't a whole lot of sarcasm involved here. I do feel that the MIAA is a better place to be to achieve our goals. I would be more excited to go to a Hope game than an Oakland game and from what I've witnessed the last few years so would our die hard fans. We seem to have some how accumulated a lot of graduates from Missouri.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Tacitus651 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:11 pm

I’d rather be the worst D1 team in the country than be perennial D2 or D3 national champions.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby NC Titan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:14 pm

upbasketballfan wrote:I would be more excited to go to a Hope game than an Oakland game and from what I've witnessed the last few years so would our die hard fans. We seem to have some how accumulated a lot of graduates from Missouri.


Boy, are you out of touch.
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby upbasketballfan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:10 pm

NC Titan wrote:
upbasketballfan wrote:I would be more excited to go to a Hope game than an Oakland game and from what I've witnessed the last few years so would our die hard fans. We seem to have some how accumulated a lot of graduates from Missouri.


Boy, are you out of touch.



And I suppose you think your not?
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby uofdfan1983 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:25 pm

OK, I'll get sucked in:
The Horizon sucks. It always will suck. We need a longterm vision to get out of this crappy league and I don't think we are even to that point yet. I don't think we are far enough along as we should be in our slowpoke pace of action, but we are on the right path. The entire University is on the right path. I was there yesterday for a meeting with our new softball coach. We have new banners reflecting our Jesuit and Mercy traditions. They were sandblasting the tower again. Small things, but steps. I am anxious to hear what our fulltime freshman enrollment will be in the fall. This will be the first year that the tuition rollback will have a significant effect, if that in actuality will be the case. We need a growing fulltime enrollment. We need new dorms. BADLY. We need dorm renovations. BADLY.

I hate OU. But they ARE our rival right now. We need a rival. So I'm glad we have one. UP, those are the only 2 games each season that get the attention of our local media. Until we can get Marquette or Dayton back as a rival, we have to settle for the boys up north.

We have loyal fans, loyal supporters. Many successful alums who have done well and give back. What we do not have is the rainmaker -- the Gilbert or the Ross who can singlehandedly build a new building or buy us into a new league. If we work together long and hard enough, though, we can scrape together money for soccer lights. Next thing we need is a bubble so the minor sports can practice on campus during the long winter.

I like our administration more than previous ones. Not perfect, but better. I think the world of Garabaldi. Vowels tries hard and is a smart man. Wish he showed more outward passion, but we are who we are.

Jury is out on Mike Davis still, but I have hope. Hope is better than the alternative.

I still dream of the Final Four. I dream of 11,000+ and people sitting in the aisles again like Marquette 81 - U-D 77. It'll happen. Softball won a League Championship. Anything can be accomplished with a vision, good coaching, smart people, some talent and lots of hard work. Go Titans!
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Re: Purdue Fort Wayne to join Horizon League

Postby Rogobob77 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:38 pm

In my 46 years as an active Titan supporter, I have never met a single fan that advocated for a downward departure from D1. Not one.
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