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Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:37 pm
by 1975SHjoe
A very sad day in Titan land. The AD needs to explain why the appeal was not made to the NCAA back in May

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:03 am
by ptctitan
1975SHjoe wrote:A very sad day in Titan land. The AD needs to explain why the appeal was not made to the NCAA back in May


That's a reasonable question that needs to be answered.

However, I think the answer to the main question here, "How could we appeal the postseason ban without filing a formal appeal or waiver before last May?" is found in the last paragraph in our press release about the APR Improvement Plan. Any university subject to an APR penalty must submit such a plan. And the NCAA can take further action like relieving the university of further penalties based upon the plan. This can occur particularly when the university has already shown significant progress towards APR improvement.

It's my opinion that we asked for relief from this year's postseason ban as part of our APR Improvement Plan submission and discussions with the NCAA. The NCAA accepted our plan and granted us relief from any further penalties; but it chose not to allow us to play in this year's postseason. I hope that the NCAA will permit us to clarify things.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:23 am
by titanmike
ptctitan wrote:
1975SHjoe wrote:A very sad day in Titan land. The AD needs to explain why the appeal was not made to the NCAA back in May


That's a reasonable question that needs to be answered.

However, I think the answer to the main question here, "How could we appeal the postseason ban without filing a formal appeal or waiver before last May?" is found in the last paragraph in our press release about the APR Improvement Plan. Any university subject to an APR penalty must submit such a plan. And the NCAA can take further action like relieving the university of further penalties based upon the plan. This can occur particularly when the university has already shown significant progress towards APR improvement.

It's my opinion that we asked for relief from this year's postseason ban as part of our APR Improvement Plan submission and discussions with the NCAA. The NCAA accepted our plan and granted us relief from any further penalties; but it chose not to allow us to play in this year's postseason. I hope that the NCAA will permit us to clarify things.


Yeah, I would say its a pretty big cluster bleep.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:38 am
by ptctitan
titanmike wrote:
Yeah, I would say its a pretty big cluster bleep.


Yeah. As a Titan fan, I think I'd rather be fighting off a case of the coronavirus this morning than thinking about this issue.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:00 am
by 1975SHjoe
PC The issue that stands in conflict with your comments is that we fans were assured at every round ball luncheon by the AD that an appeal has been filed. Those comments by the AD conflict with what has come out in the last few days. In addition why would coach say in December that the ban is lifted. The NCAA does not deal with the coach but with the AD. So where did Davis get his info from...the AD? For me unless the AD comes out with a full explanation I will have to evaluate what my 45 years of support of the program will continue to be. I do not appreciate being mislead!

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:12 am
by JDetroitTitan
I am not going to cry over spilled milk right now. That isn't what this program needs. I am glad that we aren't having further penalties by the NCAA put on us. When you look at the APR rating from the last three years we should be banned next year too (even if we got a perfect score) but apparently we have been relieved of it. Not knowing anything about what goes on behind the scene I would theorize that the APR ban being fixed and us giving out scholarships to are walk-on(s) in the new semester might have something to do with each other. What I mean by is that are walk-on(s) might of helped are GPA. When I did a little more research on the APR they calculate it in semesters. So for basketball every player can get a possible 4 points (two for each semester). I was able to back engineer are worst season and get the same APR rating. The only thing was when I did it that way we needed JB and JJJR to be enrolled. I don't believe that both of them not enrolling in school was a conciseness. If this is the case then we are all firing shots at a a guy who hired a long time friend it sounds like and got burn by it. Secondly I don't think this school will grease wheels to get things done. Thirdly the school might of held on to the information longer until they had good information (by the fix for next year). Fourthly the NCAA doesn't release it's report until 5/6/2019 which is in the month they said we had to appeal by. I don't think we have a big administration department to have the resources to get this done possible(just a thought). So I choose not to go down that path that I can't see the road. We are all complaining about what the previous coaching staff left us with. If it was intentional then we are just feeding into what they engineered. If it was not intentional we are going to have to deal with it anyways. To me it is a price I will pay to get an elite coaching staff in our building. Davis has been a winner every where he has going no matter what level the program is. Are program was in the grave apparently and lets see if Davis will make Frankenstein out of it. One that everyone will fear that stands in front of it.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:53 am
by ptctitan
1975SHjoe wrote:PC The issue that stands in conflict with your comments is that we fans were assured at every round ball luncheon by the AD that an appeal has been filed. Those comments by the AD conflict with what has come out in the last few days. In addition why would coach say in December that the ban is lifted. The NCAA does not deal with the coach but with the AD. So where did Davis get his info from...the AD? For me unless the AD comes out with a full explanation I will have to evaluate what my 45 years of support of the program will continue to be. I do not appreciate being mislead!


As I said, you have asked reasonable questions for which we need answers. And the AD needs to be the person who answers them.

I doubt that the coaches spoke directly to the NCAA about the request to play in this postseason. So, there are two likely scenarios here. Someone misunderstood what the NCAA told us in December and communicated inaccurate information to the coaches. Or the NCAA changed its mind.

In my research on the NCAA website about APR, I've found two ways that a school can make its case to the NCAA about APR penalties. The first way is to appeal directly to have the APR recalculated or the penalties waived. The second way is to submit an APR Improvement Plan, ask the NCAA to accept the plan, and, upon acceptance of the plan, not enforce any further APR penalties against the school. The second way is mandatory for a school like us with a sport's 4-year APR average under 930.

If you use the first way, then you must make this formal appeal before the NCAA releases its APR data in early May. Because the only penalties assessed against us were this year's Level 1 penalties, even if we got them waived for this year, we would have been back in the same position right now. Why? Because the low APRs from 2015-16 and 2017-18 are still 50% of the four-year average APR that would be announced this May. And these types of appeals usually don't get decided until September of each year. So, even if we had won a formal appeal last year, we would be facing the same problem right now.

If you use the second way, the APR Improvement Plan, you still get to present all of your transfer and academic non-performance data and the reasons for each player's issues. And you can still ask for relief from all future penalties. It appears to me that we used the second way to present our case to the NCAA. While this is technically not an "appeal" under NCAA rules, in reality, it is an appeal to the NCAA for relief from APR penalties because we have implemented an acceptable plan to make sure these same issues do not recur.

Thus, when Tony Paul called the NCAA and spoke with the woman in charge of public news and relations, they only spoke about the first avenue open to us. She was not aware of any other communications that we had with the NCAA about the matter. So, this reduces to the NCAA not liking that we used "appeal" instead of some other term to explain the situation. And Vowels owes us a confirmation of this basic concept.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:01 am
by Tacitus651
ptc, are you a lawyer? Not trying to be an a** or insult you in any way, just honestly curious.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:17 pm
by ptctitan
No. I'm a research analyst and writer.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:32 pm
by NC Titan
<mock fury>

PTC, don't take this sitting down! Don't let anyone accuse you of being a lawyer. Demand a duel!! You have a reputation to maintain!!!!

<end mock fury>

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:54 pm
by ptctitan
Just a curmudgeon with writer's block on a topic about which I was trying to write. I'm not upset that others are upset because I'm upset, too. I'm just interested in learning the facts and helping others learn them. As I said earlier, I'd rather be dealing with the coronavirus than this issue.

Re: Appeal

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:53 pm
by Hoopster_Now_In_DC
Who cares now, the season is OVER :(