Which opponents draw fans?

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Which opponents draw fans?

Postby Commissioner » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:51 pm

Here is a little list of Horizon foes and the average attendance they've brought to Calihan over the last 10 years (i.e. 2003-2012).

Team Avg.
1. Butler 4472
2. UIC 2626
3. Wright St. 2508
4. Valpo 2454 (5 games)
5. Cleveland St. 2326
6. Loyola 2234
7. Youngstown St. 2002
8. Milwaukee 1826
9. Green Bay 1770

If you add in conference tournament games played at Calihan, Wright State drops to an average of 2382; Loyola to 2156; and Cleveland State to 2112. Those are tough draws, scheduled with little notice, so I didn't include them in the first set of numbers.

And here are our in-state MAC foes plus Bowling Green, which I've included because we've had them 4 times at home in the last 10 years:
1. Eastern Michigan 2905 (4 games)
2. Western Michigan 2794 (5 games)
3. Bowling Green 2111 (4 games)
4. Central Michigan 1908 (2 games)

A couple thoughts:
a) we see here how losing Butler is going to hurt. In the last 10 years, only once did Butler fail to draw at least 3000 fans - seven times they drew at least 4000 fans to Calihan. We've drawn 4000 or more fans against the league's other eight teams combined just six times in that same period; we've drawn more than 3000 fans 3 times against UIC, twice against Wright St., once against Valpo, Milwaukee, Loyola, Cleveland St. and Youngstown, and never against Green Bay.

b) Eastern and Western remain good draws. Going back 15 years instead of 10, we find three more games with Western that drew an average of 3486; and one more with Eastern which drew 3302. We should be trying to maintain regular home and home series with both. If Central would ever win again, they might draw OK too - we drew an average of 2897 in three games against them from 1998-2002. We played Toledo twice during this 10 year span and drew an average of 2457 for those two games, which isn't bad. In short, Michigan MAC teams (and Toledo) are good non-conference draws for us. One problem, however, is that - assuming we'd play these series home and home - Eastern and Central both suffer from very low home attendance. So they may be attractive home games for us, but particularly unattractive road games. And of course it looks like Western isn't going to play us for a while.

c) Our only game against Oakland in this span drew 3625. If we go back 15 years instead of 10, we played them twice more at Calihan, drawing an average of 2801 for those two added games. I don't see that we gain anything by playing Albany, Alabama State, Tennessee Tech, etc. rather than Oakland. We recruit against them anyway; it would be a well attended game with good PR in Detroit. We should be playing them.

d) Not in the numbers above, but I've been playing around with old numbers. We haven't played Wayne State since 2001, when we drew 2523. In the early '90s we twice drew over 8500 for games with Wayne at Cobo. It seems to me that if we're going to play non-Division I games in November and December, Wayne would be a much better draw than Lake Erie, Concordia, Rochester, etc. Of course, Wayne did beat us in one of those early 1990s games - but if we're not willing to risk that, well...
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby R.B.J1 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:09 pm

Thanks Commisioner. I would have no problem giving Michigan or Michigan State a 3 for 1 deal to get them into to the Hall.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby ExcitedTitan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:16 am

Good work as always Commish.

Here's a project for you? The Top 50 (or 25 or 10) MCC/HL Players in the past 20 years. I came across this article about MAC players and wondered about the top HL players (and perhaps how the HL stacks up against the MAC). I think Brian Grant and Rashad have to be 1 and 2, but I don't know who I'd put first. Where would Willie fit in. He had a great HL season his senior year.

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/misc/the ... -1991-2011

Here's a list of the HL Players of the Year for a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_Le ... f_the_Year
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby Detriotfinest » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:07 am

yes, i am an idiot who mistyped detroit and am now stuck with it. I was lucky to even register.

How many times do we need to discuss how bad attendance is and deciphering it over and over. I would even rather read trutitans rants about the coaches and recruiting.

We are not that bad considering we are in a city that has literally been falling apart for how long now. Mass exodus out of town. Unemployment at what %, forclosures at what % and the location of the school. We all should know why the attendance is what it is. This is not Ann Arbor or even Lansing. We do o.k. and will do better. Winning does help, star players help, the athletic department is doing all it can. We can ask for no more and be happy we have a Division 1 team and it is on the rise again.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby Rogobob77 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:30 pm

Not saying that Butler was not one of the more attractive games on the Titan home schedule, but I wonder how much of the upward bump in the attendance shown for that particular opponent reflects more a correlation between variables rather than a causation effect. I would venture to say that Butler was disproportionately selected to be our Homecoming game opponent, frequently a televised (e.g., ESPN2) game (which drove additional marketing efforts by the Athletic Department), etc. I think the poor attendance figures for a ranked Mississippi State team last season demonstrate that having an attractive opponent alone is not necessarily a driver of a significantly higher crowd. Among the other variables that come into play in the attendance math:

- Whether the game on the weekend versus a week day (i.e., Saturday games, of course, are always best attended; Monday night is probably the worst day).

- Whether or not students are on campus.

- Expectations for team success coming into a season.

- How well the team has been playing of late.

- Weather.

- Other calendar variables (e.g., games scheduled on New Years Day are not going to draw well).

- Special promotions (Homecoming, special groups, discounted tickets, etc.) that are connected to a specific game on the schedule.

- How many of the fans from the opposing schools will travel with their team.

Although a first glance the Commish's stats seem to suggest that it is Butler's presense alone in Calihan Hall that is attracting an extra 1500 or so UDM fans to the game, I think if you controlled for all the other variables you would see that perhaps only a couple hundred fans or so were in attendance primarily because it was the Bulldogs, and not another opponent, that the Titans were matched up against.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanmac » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:48 pm

+1 rogo.
In Greek mythology, the Titans were greater even than the gods. They ruled their universe with absolute power! Well that basketball court out there tonight, that's our universe. Let's rule it like Titans! (with apologies to coach boon)
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanreggie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:50 pm

Our fans are supposed to come to see our team regardless of who we play [in my opinion]. If our so called fans keep waiting for a great team to come here, they will be dead first. Get into our team and be proud of our team. We have the potential to have a great team this season and as always, I personally come to see the Titans play, whoever they play, and I just want them to beat the opponent.

I just want to see our team have a home court advantage at the Hall and not just for one game but for all games.

TR
TAKE THAT BALL TO THE HOOP & MAKE THOSE TURNOVERS HURT!
PLAY HARD, PLAY TOGETHER & PLAY TO WIN! DEFEND THE HALL!
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby TitanBen » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:59 pm

I finally got signed on! It was easier than the old way of trying to read those hidden letters! I must be color blind.
I will do my part and keep coming to EVERY game (and almost every out of town game as well) and bringing people with me.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby TitanBen » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:02 pm

Hey Reggie, was busy trying to type in my first response and didn't notice your post.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanreggie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Hey Ben, welcome to the message board. Hope your summer is going well. No way would I ever be critical of you and yours. Your crew goes everywhere and always cheer for the team. I think you know what I mean though. I go to the games to see my team play and I try to go wherever I can to see them play and support them. Looking forward to going as often as I can again this upcoming season. I hope more fans come to the Hall to see our team play, trying to convince them other teams that come to the Hall are good, like Miss. St and Kent St etc has been a losing proposition.

TR
TAKE THAT BALL TO THE HOOP & MAKE THOSE TURNOVERS HURT!
PLAY HARD, PLAY TOGETHER & PLAY TO WIN! DEFEND THE HALL!
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanmac » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:22 pm

+1 ben n reggie
In Greek mythology, the Titans were greater even than the gods. They ruled their universe with absolute power! Well that basketball court out there tonight, that's our universe. Let's rule it like Titans! (with apologies to coach boon)
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby Commissioner » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:24 pm

Rogobob77 wrote:Not saying that Butler was not one of the more attractive games on the Titan home schedule, but I wonder how much of the upward bump in the attendance shown for that particular opponent reflects more a correlation between variables rather than a causation effect. I would venture to say that Butler was disproportionately selected to be our Homecoming game opponent, frequently a televised (e.g., ESPN2) game (which drove additional marketing efforts by the Athletic Department), etc. I think the poor attendance figures for a ranked Mississippi State team last season demonstrate that having an attractive opponent alone is not necessarily a driver of a significantly higher crowd. Among the other variables that come into play in the attendance math:

- Whether the game on the weekend versus a week day (i.e., Saturday games, of course, are always best attended; Monday night is probably the worst day).

- Whether or not students are on campus.

- Expectations for team success coming into a season.

- How well the team has been playing of late.

- Weather.

- Other calendar variables (e.g., games scheduled on New Years Day are not going to draw well).

- Special promotions (Homecoming, special groups, discounted tickets, etc.) that are connected to a specific game on the schedule.

- How many of the fans from the opposing schools will travel with their team.

Although a first glance the Commish's stats seem to suggest that it is Butler's presense alone in Calihan Hall that is attracting an extra 1500 or so UDM fans to the game, I think if you controlled for all the other variables you would see that perhaps only a couple hundred fans or so were in attendance primarily because it was the Bulldogs, and not another opponent, that the Titans were matched up against.


I think much of this is true, however... ten years ought to more or less even out for weather, good seasons/bad seasons, game date etc. Not completely, but you go back too far and you start to get other distortions. I mean, in a sense the numbers aren't terribly surprising: among our regular opponents, Butler, WMU and EMU have drawn well. As to efforts to make Butler the big game, that may be true ... but it just shows that Butler is in fact the big draw - the team our marketing guys think they can draw a crowd for. Over time, some league rival will replace Butler as the league's dominant team (or second dominant, after us :) ) but that will take a couple years, most likely.

For Detroit's Finest, I put this type of stuff up here not to complain or bemoan our plight. I do it because I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff - while commuting and procrastinating for example. I'm an extremely analytical fan (I wish I had more Moose or Titan Reg in me), and I love trivia. So I'm just thinking one day, "I wonder who is our best league draw? Probably Butler. Who is likely to take Butler's place?" And then I figure I might as well share the info here.

To get back to positive speculation, I'd guess the answer to that last question - who is most likely to take Butler's place? (including, per Rogo, in marketing, scheduling special events etc) - is Valpo or Cleveland State. Valpo has drawn pretty well the last three years, including over 4000 in 2011; they're defending regular season champs and should be good again. They're a smaller, private university like we are and I think at least some fans relate to that as a rivalry. While CSU hasn't drawn that well, there's a certain natural rivalry in all sports between Detroit and Cleveland, and the Vikings have been pretty good the last few years and should continue to be so as long as Waters is there. We drew over 7000 for a game with CSU in 2001, just outside the window I looked at; and over 8000 for them in 1999. Those are the second and third biggest Calihan crowds ever for any team currently in the Horizon, the best being a pre-Horizon 1978 game against Loyola (and another by the way - Loyola remained a remarkably good draw for UD well through the 1990s, regularly drawing 5000 fans or more even when they - and we - weren't very good).
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby MooseGuy1 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:15 pm

As always, Commissioner, a very thought-provoking post. I try to go to as many games as I can and always have a good time so it frustrates me to no end that the best sports value in town is ignored by so many. I'll go as often as I'm able, which is a fair amount. I think I only missed three or four home games last year...enough that I'm recognized by a lot of regulars. But, on the other hand, I came late to the party so I guess I'm in no position to point fingers. In the final analysis, although this is a vital subject it kind of depresses me to think about it too much. So...I'm determined to be an optimist. Yes, we have our challenges. We are not in a stereotypical "college town". But there is more of a real sense of community among the fans and, for me, this is of great value. Reggie, Mac, Commissioner, David (the hat man), Byron, Lucious, Bob, and a lot of others have really been ambassadors for their university and team. At Calihan Hall and here online. I've never had a cross word or an umpleasant experience with anyone. Thank you, everyone; I've really enjoyed getting to know you all.

This team is on the rise. As I stated before on another thread, interest is high going into this year. It should be a great time to be a Titan and an equally great opportunity to retain fans who venture to their first game or come back after years away. GO TITANS!!
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby NC Titan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:43 pm

I'd like to see us play Valpo at home early in the season and see us promote the game as a grudge match: Valpo is pissed that we took the championship in their house and they want revenge. Then we beat the ever-living crap out of them, and the fans flock to Calihan to see how dominant we can be the rest of the season. Doug is Mr. Excitement, Ray is ... Ray, Nick is Mr. Cool. Evan scowls, Jason quietly lights it up from outside.

And, of course, we host the tournament and the finals is Detroit and Valpo again -- but this time in our house. And we are merciless. Anderson is thunder-dunking, and Ray is pounding the floor, and Nick is killing them with 3s and our Surprising Unknowns, the two JCs in center, are swatting away anyone who dares invade the paint.

Just thinking out loud.....
#DetroitsCollegeTeam #OurCityOurTime
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanreggie » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:27 pm

I think so PU. You know he's kind of shy. :lol:
TAKE THAT BALL TO THE HOOP & MAKE THOSE TURNOVERS HURT!
PLAY HARD, PLAY TOGETHER & PLAY TO WIN! DEFEND THE HALL!
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby TitanBen » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:31 am

Yes, it's me. Will be posting from time to time.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby R.B.J1 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:03 pm

titanreggie wrote:I think so PU. You know he's kind of shy. :lol:


TR, be very careful around PU, I've read his comments about UDM, the city of Detroit and the whole state of Michigan on various websites. He isn't very kind in his statements. He reminds me of that old Ojays song "backstabbers".
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby jucofan1 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:40 pm

R.B.J1 is right on that one. Don't know if all the board members remember when Panther posted a picture of a player beat to hell with a eye patch and stated it was done by Detroit thugs during a game. Singled out was Minnerath who never touched the kid the whole game. We never got an apology from the a-hole. I said it then and I will say it only one more time. I watched the complete game after his bullshit accusations. There was a little rough play from Blake and Simon and that was about it. It was a good tough game all around with some very bad calls like what could have been a game winner when the called a charge on minnerath that should have been a three point play. Even the announcer said the same on replay. Anyway, not to beat a dead horse, I do not like the guy, left alone trust him.
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby titanreggie » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:02 pm

Just a note to all of you. I am old enough to associate with whomever I want. I don't need any of you to tell me who or what to do. I've known PU as a friend for many years and though I don't agree with everything he writes, he loves his school like we love ours. You take his words to close to heart and some of the stuff he does is just to get you riled up. Guys like him and Big D are good guys. That is my opinion. What would he "backstab" me over? He's entitled to his opinion just like you all are. How can he backstab anything about our league? He's one guy with an opinion, that's it.

TR
TAKE THAT BALL TO THE HOOP & MAKE THOSE TURNOVERS HURT!
PLAY HARD, PLAY TOGETHER & PLAY TO WIN! DEFEND THE HALL!
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Re: Which opponents draw fans?

Postby jucofan1 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:13 pm

Hey Reg, I really enjoy reading your post. The issue I have is that Panther's writing reaches a fairly large audience, and when he out right lies and misrepresents the players on our team I find offensive. It can hurt or tarnish a players name, even with a 100% lie some people will always have doubts about the player.....cause why would anyone make up such outlandish, derogatory statements about someone. It is very unfair to the player or players. To put it simply, it is bullshit.
My opinion and I respect your opinion.
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